You Can Give The Man A Million Drug Tests And It Still Won't Clear His Name.

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Michael Matos, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    QUOTE=mikE;247465]wtf are you talking about, Rebel? Concrete proof that others had speculated or concrete proof that Pacq juices?

    There doesn't have to be concrete proof of the latter to be guilty of it. Pacquiao's achievements are reason enough to be skeptical of him. Turning down $40 million for a few blood tests...in my mind that proves more than a positive test. At least with a positive test you have the chance of a false positive or tampering. Turning down $40 million is better than a confession, in my mind.[/QUOTE]


    A million drug tests will never clear Manny Pacquiao's name that is obvious from some of the responses listed above in various discussions throughout this board and I can assure you and many of you who frequent other sites can report the same thing. As always I like to look at the big picture. The big picture here is that in the minds of many a clean drug test for Manny Pacquiao will only prove one or two things in the minds of many, one, he was clean for the test but that doesn't prove he was clean for any other fight or, two, he is one step ahead of the testers which is why a million drug tests will never clear his name.

    While looking at the big picture another thought crossed my mind, here we have Manny Pacquiao, compared by many to one fo the greatest fighters of the past, Henry Armstrong, now in this debate in regards to Armstrong we are saying that there is no way Manny Pacquiao is as good Henry Armstrong and the only way he has accomplished Armstrongesque feats is by using Performance Enhancing Drugs. Fair enough if that is your position but in taking that position can you argue that fighters of today are better than the fighters of yeaterday for when one fighter approaches that accomplishment how he got there is bought into question, are you saying that there will never be a fighter who was able to do what Armstrong did or do something Armstrongesque. Are the Armstrongs and Louis' and the other authors of long held and seldom challenged fistical accomplishments are they the Supermen of our sport, their records never to be challenged by a mortal man. Were they of such pugilistic prowess that anyone who comes close just has to be using. That is what you are saying. A million drug tests will never clear his name.

    I applaud anyones effort to add integrity to a sport in which by all outward appearances is lacking the same. However you don't add integrity to the game by saying "we know he is using something, the real doctors will find it", you don't add integrity to the game by saying "I have to question my opponents fairness". You'll question it forever and if you beat him you'll say it was because he wasn't using and if you lose it will be because he didn't get caught. A million tests will never clear his name.

    A few other observations, a few people here have equated Mayweathers request for additional drug testing on the same level as Pacquiao negotiatiing for Cotto to make 145. I did some research on that throughout the history and found very few examples of that where the challenger asked the champion to make a certain weight. Lou Ambers and Tony Canzenori agreed on weight for their title fight but it was a vacant title. Andy Ganigan and Alexis Arguello allegedly agreed to come in a couple of pounds under the lightweight limit for their title fight however Ganigan showed up at the limit while Arguello weighed in at a light 133. Arguello stopped him in 5. I suppose you could include the Leonard-LaLonde agreement although that fight involved two weight classes, two belts, two headaches, anyway. I did find some other examples but that was way back at the beginning of weight classes where one jurisdiction would have a lightweight limit of 135 and the other 138 and especially in the bantamweight division as their was no flyweight division in it's early history.
     
  2. TLC

    TLC Member

    Pacquiao is a cheat.
     
  3. lb 4 lb

    lb 4 lb Member

    Based on what? If none of you were claiming this before hand than obviously you let others think for you because as soon as the Mayweathers brought it up everyone jumped on the bandwagon.
     
  4. Attraction

    Attraction Member

    I think TLC is just trying to be the opposite of Rebel. It's funny actually and very clever. Very entertaining.

    With regard to Pacman taking drugs.. yes his rep is tarnished to a degree now. I read a newspaper article in the national paper over here where Barry McGuigan was criticising Pac for not taking the tests. he doesn't think pac is using PEDs though.

    Personally, the way I look at it is like this. If you look at Pacmans style even in the lower divisions, that style was always going to carry up well. He is an awkward southpaw with power who blasted through his opponents. Morales was able to stand with him in the first fight but it clearly took whatever he had left out of him. A style like that was always going to be problematic for the David Diazs and Ricky Hattons. DLH should have annihilated Pacman but the weight issue was a huge factor. I don't think it's preposterous that Pac has jumped through the weight classes, his style was always going to do well.

    As far as the PED issue goes... think about it logically. These fighters have MILLION DOLLAR PAYDAYS possibly ahead of them. I'm talking about all of the A and B class fighters. Now, look at the current rules... a piss test before and after the fight.

    You don't have to be Einstein to know that EPO, HGH etc can all be taken strategically and not show up in the tests if you stop after a while. EVERYONE knows this.

    Toney/Mosley/Vargas/RJJ etc were all caught (well Mosley wasn't officially but admitted it). I believe that was not their first time using. I also believe that other A and B class fighters are obviously using these PEDs because THEY CAN and they can get away with it easily.

    I think PED use is rampant in the sport. Floyd is using them imo, or he has in the past. I believe the majority of fighters are using, simply because of the ridiculous rules.

    It's fairly obvious to me that most fighters would use them if they thought they could get away with it and get that million dollar payday. With how easy it is to use them, you'd be an idiot not to.

    I believe Pacman is using.. look at the pressure he has.. fighting for a nation of millions every time. If he can get away with it, he will.

    Floyd was shocked by how Pacman walked through cottos punches and was able to hurt Cotto on the backfoot and drop him. Floyd still thinks he can beat Pacman but is willing to not use PEDs this time around in order to ensure Pac isn't using them. it's that simple in my mind.

    Obviously Pac wants to use them, and as a result we get this "I'm scared of needles etc" garbage.
     
  5. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Okay, you are saying that if Mayweather and Pacquiao had a discussion it would go like this.

    Floyd: Manny look both of us know that both of us are drug cheats
    Manny: Yeah Floyd I wasn't going to bring it up if you didn't
    Floyd: Manny I got an idea, lets both of us come in clean for this fight

    My man. nobody who uses drugs I don't give a shit what that drug is named is going to do that. It's drugs, the whole concept of drugs is to get better drugs, not to give them up.
     
  6. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    All of the sudden...the Mayweathers are the clean and law abiding citizens. :24:

    They are cheats, women beaters, ex convicts, and addicts.
     
  7. TLC

    TLC Member

    Ya know why Mosely wasn't caught? Because he took a designer steroid called "The Clear" that didn't show up in urine tests. That was almost a decade ago.
     
  8. andrew

    andrew Member


    Who said that Val?
     

  9. A million drug tests will never clear Manny Pacquiao's name that is obvious from some of the responses listed above in various discussions throughout this board and I can assure you and many of you who frequent other sites can report the same thing. As always I like to look at the big picture. The big picture here is that in the minds of many a clean drug test for Manny Pacquiao will only prove one or two things in the minds of many, one, he was clean for the test but that doesn't prove he was clean for any other fight or, two, he is one step ahead of the testers which is why a million drug tests will never clear his name.

    While looking at the big picture another thought crossed my mind, here we have Manny Pacquiao, compared by many to one fo the greatest fighters of the past, Henry Armstrong, now in this debate in regards to Armstrong we are saying that there is no way Manny Pacquiao is as good Henry Armstrong and the only way he has accomplished Armstrongesque feats is by using Performance Enhancing Drugs. Fair enough if that is your position but in taking that position can you argue that fighters of today are better than the fighters of yeaterday for when one fighter approaches that accomplishment how he got there is bought into question, are you saying that there will never be a fighter who was able to do what Armstrong did or do something Armstrongesque. Are the Armstrongs and Louis' and the other authors of long held and seldom challenged fistical accomplishments are they the Supermen of our sport, their records never to be challenged by a mortal man. Were they of such pugilistic prowess that anyone who comes close just has to be using. That is what you are saying. A million drug tests will never clear his name.

    I applaud anyones effort to add integrity to a sport in which by all outward appearances is lacking the same. However you don't add integrity to the game by saying "we know he is using something, the real doctors will find it", you don't add integrity to the game by saying "I have to question my opponents fairness". You'll question it forever and if you beat him you'll say it was because he wasn't using and if you lose it will be because he didn't get caught. A million tests will never clear his name.

    A few other observations, a few people here have equated Mayweathers request for additional drug testing on the same level as Pacquiao negotiatiing for Cotto to make 145. I did some research on that throughout the history and found very few examples of that where the challenger asked the champion to make a certain weight. Lou Ambers and Tony Canzenori agreed on weight for their title fight but it was a vacant title. Andy Ganigan and Alexis Arguello allegedly agreed to come in a couple of pounds under the lightweight limit for their title fight however Ganigan showed up at the limit while Arguello weighed in at a light 133. Arguello stopped him in 5. I suppose you could include the Leonard-LaLonde agreement although that fight involved two weight classes, two belts, two headaches, anyway. I did find some other examples but that was way back at the beginning of weight classes where one jurisdiction would have a lightweight limit of 135 and the other 138 and especially in the bantamweight division as their was no flyweight division in it's early history.[/quote]

    good pts as always, MM

    why all of the sudden out of the blue, is manny a cheat? just because the mayweather's imply it?

    he has passed every standard drug test...why has may not asked his other opponents to test?

    where is the proof? because he wont take a blood test? because he has gone through wt classes

    I think he is a phenom and until proven otherwise not a juicer

    am i naive not to think "everyone's" a suspect? sure...the tiger story still is amazing (OT but you get the pt....who knew?)...but lets not accuse someone without any concrete proof

    we are innocent in this country until proven otherwise

    and if it is proven, I will happily eat crow

    i just think may and his peeps are just playing games, and i am starting to question whether he really wants this fight

    the losers? we the fans, of course..nothing new there...
     
  10. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    good pts as always, MM

    why all of the sudden out of the blue, is manny a cheat? just because the mayweather's imply it?

    he has passed every standard drug test...why has may not asked his other opponents to test?

    where is the proof? because he wont take a blood test? because he has gone through wt classes

    I think he is a phenom and until proven otherwise not a juicer

    am i naive not to think "everyone's" a suspect? sure...the tiger story still is amazing (OT but you get the pt....who knew?)...but lets not accuse someone without any concrete proof

    we are innocent in this country until proven otherwise

    and if it is proven, I will happily eat crow

    i just think may and his peeps are just playing games, and i am starting to question whether he really wants this fight

    the losers? we the fans, of course..nothing new there...[/QUOTE]

    Exactly right.

    I will add that the number one goal for PBF, his staff, ODLH and his people is to discredit a fighter that historically speaking comes around once every 40 or 50 years.

    That's their number one goal: to discredit Pac.

    NO ONE in this board or the news questioned Pac until the Mayweathers and ODLH and Co.started to plant the seed of doubt.

    I for one hope he sues the heck out of them and deny them of a payday. That is what I would personally do if I was Pac.


    Pac is one of those fighters that a lost won't tarnish him. But PBF is not. If he loses one fight...it is over for him.
     
  11. Ludovico

    Ludovico Member

    You can give a man a million commission's urine tests and it still won't show if he's truly clean as we saw with Shane Mosley who passed easily every test and was only shown to be cheating because they found Conte's paperwork. Manny's name is clear already, but having him man up, take the blood tests, pass them with flying colors and then KO Mayweather would take him to a whole new level and would certainly shut every mouth that said he was a cheater.
     
  12. he shouldn't have to do that though, on heresay

    he wont KO may either

    I think may wins this fight!
    and thats the sad/ironic thing about all this nonsense
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2010
  13. BJ*

    BJ* Member

    you guys are retarded if you think testing as it currently stands is sufficient...

    you cry a lot about "we've been testing this way forever"...how retarded is that? steroids weren't even utilized as PEDs until the late 70s...not much until the mid 80s...

    so at SOME point, we had to say its time to start testing for STEROIDS...which I have to remind you guys again and again is no LONGER the only PED on the market.

    So when is it time to advance? Should we be testing for absinthe or some other antiquated drug that no one uses anymore or advance with the times?

    Mayweather(s) didn't convince me of anything...in fact, if i knew how to search old posts i'd show you...when it was first suggested, i said that its very likely...

    If I wasn't making a major stink about it everyday its because i already believed it to be rampant...much like the NFL, no one seems to give a damn...but now that the topic is timely, I will continue to say, yes, Pac is/was on EPO...just as you can find YEARS old posts from me banging on Holyfield for his HgH usage...

    i know you guys want to continue the ostrich routine...it makes like easier...thats fine...its just not reality
     
  14. Attraction

    Attraction Member

    Do you understand the current testing procedures?
     
  15. TIP

    TIP Member

    Pac filed a law suit against the Mayweather camp with a high powered lawyer. Why did he do this instead of just agreeing to the additional blood tests Mayweather asked for. Answer- because Mayweather PISSED him off by PUBLICLY accusing him of using. Put yourself in his position whether using or not. Some loudmouthed you're about to begin the process of fight negotiations with publicly accuses you of juicing. I don't know about the rest of you but I would be pissed off. You'd be thinking, this guy doesn't know whether I'm using or not and makes such a statement to the public, he's just cast a huge shadow over all my accomplishments by calling me a cheat. Fuck him, he's gonna pay for that. Now why didn't Mayweather ask for drug testing while in private negotiations? He'd have a much better chance at getting Pac to agree if he wasn't using or a better case for accusing him publicly after the private negotiated refusal. I suspect ignorance on Mayweather's part or a possibility of not wanting to fight Pac. Personally, I believe the former, but either way he angered Pac as it would have most people. TIP
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2010
  16. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Tip is 100% right.
     
  17. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Hypocrisy abounds in superfight fiasco

    By Kevin Iole, Yahoo! Sports
    Dec 29, 4:03 pm EST

    Things are not always as they seem in boxing, which is par for the course. You’ll understand the confounding events that threaten the hotly anticipated fight between Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Manny Pacquiao a lot better if you understand that in boxing, what one says publicly isn’t always what one means.

    Leonard Ellerbe, the chief executive officer of Mayweather Promotions and the unbeaten star’s best friend, said he and Mayweather adviser Al Haymon came up with the idea for the random Olympic-style drug testing as a way to protect their fighter.

    On the surface, it makes perfect sense. Who, after all, would want to fight someone who has been chemically enhanced?

    Though Ellerbe vehemently denies suggestions it’s anything but that, one has to wonder.

    Consider that Haymon is one of boxing’s most powerful figures. He is, in essence, Mayweather’s manager. He’s also the manager of a number of other elite boxers. He operates well below the radar and does not speak to the media, but his influence upon the sport is enormous.

    Among the Haymon-managed boxers is Andre Berto, who is fighting Shane Mosley in Las Vegas on Jan. 30.

    It would stand to reason that if Haymon were truly concerned about Berto’s physical well-being, as Ellerbe says he is about Mayweather’s, that he’d have already requested that Mosley submit to such testing.

    Mosley, after all, actually has used steroids and other performance enhancing substances, which he testified to in a federal court hearing in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative case.

    Mosley testified that he inadvertently used two designer steroids, known as “the cream” and “the clear,” prior to his 2003 fight with Oscar De La Hoya in Las Vegas. He also admitted to using Erythropoietin, or EPO.

    However, Mosley insisted he was misled by Victor Conte, BALCO’s president and founder. Conte emphatically denied misleading Mosley and said he disclosed to all athletes who worked with him what he was doing.

    The facts are that Manny Pacquiao has never been found to use performance enhancing drugs; he denies vehemently any suggestion that he has, though just because he hasn’t been caught doesn’t mean he hasn’t used it.

    Mosley managed to avoid detection and passed the post-fight urinalysis given to him by the Nevada commission in 2003 because the substances he used were undetectable at the time.

    Yet, Haymon is insisting upon random testing to protect Mayweather, but he’s not taken the same action to protect Berto, who is fighting someone who is an admitted user.

    “There has been no discussion at all about that kind of testing for that (Berto-Mosley) fight,” said Keith Kizer, the executive director of the Nevada Athletic Commission.

    Absurdities abound in this fiasco, which has removed much of the luster from a fight that literally had even non-boxing fans captivated.

    No one in this mess looks good.

    Pacquiao created much of it himself by simply refusing to accede to the testing, which would include random blood and urine draws. If Pacquiao had agreed, the fight would be signed and he wouldn’t be complaining that his reputation has been damaged.

    He claims he’s afraid of needles but has tattoos all over his body. He said he fears giving blood close to an event weakens him, but he gave a sample on April 8, about three weeks prior to his May 2 fight with Ricky Hatton, to fulfill his Nevada licensing requirements.

    Golden Boy Promotions CEO Richard Schaefer, whose company is representing Mayweather, has consistently spoken out of both sides of his mouth. He’s sounded righteously indignant when discussing Pacquiao’s refusal to agree to the testing, but he flat refused to consider additional testing in 2008 when Zab Judah demanded it prior to his planned fight with Mosley.

    In a March 25, 2008, interview with the Associated Press, Schaefer said Mosley would only comply with tests required by the Nevada Athletic Commission and nothing more.

    “Whatever tests they (the Nevada Athletic Commission) want them to take, Shane will submit to that,” Schaefer said in the Associated Press story. “We are not going to do other tests than the Nevada commission requires. The fact is Shane is not a cheater and he does not need to be treated like one.”

    When asked how he could justify his stance given his public comments regarding a partner in his company in 2008, Schaefer said he’s subsequently educated himself. Now, he said, Mosley is willing to take any and all tests requested, when requested, and has no issue with blood draws.

    “The fact is, I’m not a drug-testing expert,” Schaefer said. “I know many media members don’t know the difference between urine and blood testing, either. The last few days, I really educated myself on this topic. It doesn’t make me an expert, but I know the difference now between blood and urine testing. Some substances are detected more readily in urine and others are more readily discovered in the blood. Now that I have this knowledge I have gained, I believe it’s important that Shane Mosley submit to any tests requested.”

    Top Rank’s Bob Arum got so frustrated by the demands from the Mayweather camp that he initiated talks with representatives of Paulie Malignaggi.

    How does that make sense given that Malignaggi is the one boxer who actually has accused Pacquiao of using performance-enhancing substances? If you’re Arum and you’re convinced Mayweather is using the testing request as a way to either harass or smear Pacquiao, why would you subsequently offer a fight with Pacquiao to the one guy who actually accused him of using PEDs?

    And then there’s De La Hoya, who talks out of both sides of his mouth so often it’s not even funny. De La Hoya, who is the president of Golden Boy Promotions, continues to use his blog on the GBP-owned Ring magazine website as a personal propaganda tool.

    He publicly contradicted himself in his Dec. 23 blog in which he questioned Pacquiao’s reluctance to do blood tests.

    On Dec. 23, De La Hoya wrote in his blog, “So you have to do the blood work. If Pacquiao doesn’t want to do this and risk a possible $40 million payday because he’s afraid of needles or believes he’ll be weakened by blood tests, then that raises question marks.

    “Now I have to wonder about him. I’m saying to myself, ‘Wow. Those Mosley punches, those Vargas punches and those Pacquiao punches all felt the same.’ I’m not saying yes or no (about whether Pacquiao might be taking performance-enhancing drugs); I’m just saying that now people have to wonder: ‘Why doesn’t he want to do this? Why is it such a big deal?’ A lot of eyebrows have been raised. This is not good at all.”

    It would be a good point, if you could believe De La Hoya’s basic premise that punches from Mosley, Fernando Vargas and Pacquiao all felt the same. Both Vargas and Mosley are admitted steroids users and naturally bigger men than Pacquiao.

    However, De La Hoya’s own words contradict him. Days prior to the Mayweather-Juan Manuel Marquez fight, De La Hoya did an interview with Yahoo! Sports in which he said Pacquiao’s punches were not that hard.

    “Pacquiao is good, there’s no doubt about it,” De La Hoya told Yahoo! Sports in a 1-on-1 interview at the MGM Grand on Sept. 15. “And he’s fast. I thought there were 10 of him in there. I’m looking here and he’s over there. And I’m reacting to a punch from this way and there’s another coming at me from that way.

    “Truthfully, he didn’t hit hard. He didn’t really hurt me. But the punches were so fast and they were coming from everywhere, it felt like there were 10 of him, seriously.”

    The point here is that nobody in this mess has clean hands. The best thing to do would have been to clearly and succinctly lay out the position of each side and then work quietly toward a solution.

    Instead, the endless back-and-forth has given the impression that boxing is a lawless sport run by those looking for what they can take out of it, not how they can build it.

    Boxing needs Mayweather-Pacquiao. The attention the fight will generate is enormous and it will serve as an exhibition of the many good things that have been occurring, largely unnoticed, in the sport over the last several years.

    Hopefully, those who stand to benefit the most from the Mayweather-Pacquiao fight will remember that, before the rest of us shrug our shoulders and move on.

    Kevin Iole covers boxing and mixed martial arts for Yahoo! Sports. Send Kevin a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

    That would be a good name for the fight card if it ever happens. Hypocrisy abounds"
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2010
  18. Punk

    Punk Site Owner

    Bingo, we have a winner.
     
  19. TLC

    TLC Member

    Bahahaha, Pac is such a lying hypocrite it's fucking embarrasing. Here's hoping he gets hit by a bus.
     
  20. TIP

    TIP Member

    http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&opt=printable&id=24463

    Floyd Mayweather May Think He Will Lose, Says Merchant
    Posted by: Mark Vester on 01-03-2010.

    >>>Click Here For Tons of More Breaking Boxing News, Articles and Insider Information<<<

    By Mark Vester

    HBO's expert analyst Larry Merchant has once again discussed the ongoing saga to make a March super-fight between Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. This time Merchant spoke with AOL's Fan House. Merchant has been around a long time and he's seen a lot of tough negotiations for fights. He never saw anything like the Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations. He still doesn't fully understand the logic of Mayweather's position to demand random Olympic-style drug tests. That sole demand has destroyed the negotiations and caused Pacquiao to sue Mayweather, Golden Boy Promotions and others.

    "I thought that it was gamesmanship because I didn't see anything to be won by this. If you think that he's been using illegal substances, do you want him called out before the fight and revealed and blow the whole deal? I never got the point of all of this," Merchant said.

    "The story about somebody saying that somebody came to him and said, 'Can we conceal this?' That's more craziness. I find it hard that anybody would have even thought of that. Once you do this is public. That's, to me, even more strangeness and weirdness."

    Merchant thinks there may be a chance that Mayweather is concerned about losing this fight and it's not actually gamesmanship on his part. Mayweather loves being undefeated. It's more important than money to him. Merchant thinks the fear of losing his unbeaten record could be a reason behind his position.

    "If it's not gamesmanship, then what they're really saying is that 'Nobody can be as good as Manny Pacquiao unless he's helped by something.' Maybe it reflects on Floyd Mayweather. Even if he believes that he's going to win, maybe he think that there's a chance that he won't," Merchant said.

    "Again, from things that he's said in the past, to him, losing is worse than death because he's wrapped his identity up so much in the idea of not losing the fight. He's used that to try to deflect all of the criticism that has come his way from the boxing world and in the boxing media that he has avoided all of the real top welterweights to fight smaller guys. Being undefeated is so important to him, that maybe there's a part of this that expresses or reflects his concern."
     

Share This Page