Why is Jones Jr. the greatest of all time?

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Aymaco, Sep 8, 2002.

  1. Aymaco

    Aymaco Member

    To anybody that believes that Jones Jr is the best fighter ever or top 10. (top 15) I know Jones has been discussed all over the place here, but still I haven't seen any of the Roy fans come up with a good explanation to why Jones is the greatest. I don't think Trinidad is the greatest, I don't think he is top 10, I don't think he is even close to be top 20. But I can come up with a pretty good explanation to why I believe that Trinidad is IMO the best fighter of our era. So run down your case Why is Jones the best? What has he accomplished that no other fighter in history (or few fighters in history) have accomplished? Why is he better than Robinson, Dur?n, Pep etc?
     
  2. Rabid Kimba

    Rabid Kimba Member

    Jones is the best tomato can-opener in the history of mankind. :D :D :D

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    EL AMERICA ES EL MEJOR EQUIPO DEL MUNDO
     
  3. HOMICIDE

    HOMICIDE 2011 Super Bowl Champs

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kimba:
    Jones is the best tomato can-opener in the history of mankind. :D :D :D

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    EL AMERICA ES EL MEJOR EQUIPO DEL MUNDO
    <hr></blockquote>


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] IM ACTUALLY WAITING TO HEAR WHAT THE DAWG CLIQUE OR THE JONES FANS HAVE TO SAY......AND IM WAITING FOR AYMACO'S RESPONSE ON THE TITO THING TOO....AS I AM A TITOSITE...I LIKE FOR MY BOY TO GET PRAISE :D [​IMG]
     
  4. el patron

    el patron Member

    Kimba, miraste la goleada que le dieron las Chivas a los Tigres?
     
  5. Rabid Kimba

    Rabid Kimba Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by el patron:
    Kimba, miraste la goleada que le dieron las Chivas a los Tigres?<hr></blockquote>

    No...what was the score?

    I'm too busy watching American football. ")

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    EL AMERICA ES EL MEJOR EQUIPO DEL MUNDO!
     
  6. el patron

    el patron Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kimba:


    No...what was the score?

    I'm too busy watching American football. ")

    ------

    EL AMERICA ES EL MEJOR EQUIPO DEL MUNDO!
    <hr></blockquote>

    4-0!

    Goles de:
    22' [1 - 0] Rafael Medina

    49' [2 - 0] Emilio Mora

    53' [3 - 0] David Mendoza

    61' [4 - 0] Omar Bravo
     
  7. Rabid Kimba

    Rabid Kimba Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by el patron:


    4-0!

    Goles de:
    22' [1 - 0] Rafael Medina

    49' [2 - 0] Emilio Mora

    53' [3 - 0] David Mendoza

    61' [4 - 0] Omar Bravo
    <hr></blockquote>

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] :cool: [​IMG]

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    EL AMERICA ES EL MEJOR EQUIPO DEL MUNDO!
     
  8. HOMICIDE

    HOMICIDE 2011 Super Bowl Champs

    FREAKIN A THIS IS A BOXING THREAD...BOXING...PLEASE PPL BE MATURE...OH YEAH......J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS JETS :D :D :D [​IMG]
     
  9. Remus

    Remus Member

    I will think more about the list today and give you an idea. But he has been a champ at 160/168/175 and is really undefeated in my eyes.

    Guys like SRR/ Pep/ Monzon/ Ali/ Duran/ Greb/ Langford immediately come to mind. And on face value I think Jones is 15-20. I'm sure someone can put a list together.

    BTW: There is an excellent topic in Archives about this subject which has some very good arguements on both sides.
     
  10. Aymaco

    Aymaco Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by el patron:
    Kimba, miraste la goleada que le dieron las Chivas a los Tigres?<hr></blockquote>

    Vayans? p?l carajo con la mierda ?sa pu?ales, ?sto ?s boxeo. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Remus:
    I will think more about the list today and give you an idea. But he has been a champ at 160/168/175 and is really undefeated in my eyes.

    Guys like SRR/ Pep/ Monzon/ Ali/ Duran/ Greb/ Langford immediately come to mind. And on face value I think Jones is 15-20. I'm sure someone can put a list together.

    BTW: There is an excellent topic in Archives about this subject which has some very good arguements on both sides.
    <hr></blockquote>

    In not particular order...

    1- Roberto Duran
    2- Ray Robinson
    3- Henry Amstrong
    4- Willie Pep
    5- Jim Wilder
    6- Muhamad Ali
    7- Harry Greb
    8- Benny Leonard
    9- Joe Louis
    10- Archie Moore
    11- Sam Langford
    12- Barney Ross
    13- Mickey Walker
    14- Edder Jofre
    15- Carlos Monzon
    16- Sugar Ray Leonard


    Notice that I don't have Arguello, Sanchez, Lopez, Chavez, Whitaker, Spinks, etc. posted.

    I cannot see how in hell can RJJ make the top 50.

    Especially, when the aforementioned fighters are well known for fight and defeating the BEST.

    RJJ place in history was left behind when he bullshit his way in the 168 lbs, and then bullshit his way in the 175 lbs.

    Shit...he can fight a HWY now, and it won't do him any good.
    It is NOT about ONE fight.

    It is about an ENTIRE career.

    9 years of bullshit is not going to convince me.

    He might be top 5 in the 90s. And I don't even think he is top 3 in the 1990s.
     
  12. Remus

    Remus Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Valentino:


    In not particular order...

    1- Roberto Duran
    2- Ray Robinson
    3- Henry Amstrong
    4- Willie Pep
    5- Jim Wilder
    6- Muhamad Ali
    7- Harry Greb
    8- Benny Leonard
    9- Joe Louis
    10- Archie Moore
    11- Sam Langford
    12- Barney Ross
    13- Mickey Walker
    14- Edder Jofre
    15- Carlos Monzon
    16- Sugar Ray Leonard
    <hr></blockquote>

    yes, when you list them all, there are some greats there. But I see room to put him top 15-20. I think there are 10-12 certainties above Roy, then 5 or 6 probable's above Roy. After that it starts getting quite argueable.
     
  13. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Remus:


    yes, when you list them all, there are some greats there. But I see room to put him top 15-20. I think there are 10-12 certainties above Roy, then 5 or 6 probable's above Roy. After that it starts getting quite argueable.
    <hr></blockquote>

    Remus, no offense...let HISTORICAL rankings for people like Matos, Tip, or myself.

    RJJ is not top 30. It would be an INSULT to those fighters.
     
  14. Remus

    Remus Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Valentino:


    Remus, no offense...let HISTORICAL rankings for people like Matos, Tip, or myself.
    <hr></blockquote>

    No offense taken Tino. What you said is a very weak argument based on either of two things.

    1. Arrogance
    2. Provocation.

    Either way it's ok by me. :D
     
  15. Aymaco

    Aymaco Member

    Well since nobody is yet to run down their case for me and defend Jones Jr. So let's use Se?or Valentino's list and start with Ray Leonard I'm not a boxing expert but this is pretty much a list of his more meaningful fights and a list of Roy Jone's:

    Now Roy Jones in 1993 beats Bernard Hopkins (today believed to be the P4P #1) and defends against Thomas Tate, and then captures a tittle against James Toney, then goes up and fights Antoine Byrd, Vinny Pazienza, Eric Lucas and Mike McCallum. The beats Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, and Reggie Johnson.

    A case can be made that Ray Leonard belongs in the top 15 now let's see Leonard's record. Beats Wilfredo Benitez for the title, (believed to be one of Puerto Rico's best and youngest fighter to win title) defends it against Dave Green, and loses a some may say close fight to Roberto Duran, (arguably the best boxer in History) comes back and TKO's Duran in 8 rounds and Defends against Larry Bonds. Goes up to beat Ayub Kalule for the Super Welterwight title and proceeds to knock out Thomas Hearns. Comes out of retirement to beat Marvis Hagler and proceeds to beat Thomas Hearns on a rematch and Roberto Duran.

    Names that stick out on Leonards r?sum?: Dur?n, Hearns, Hargler, Benitez.

    all of them greats.

    Names that stick out of Jones's r?sum?: McCallum, Toney, Pazienza, and Hopkins.


    Now why is Roy Jones better?

    Like I said I am not a boxing expert but to me achievements are pretty much everything (beating the bests) talent and skill is what I use to separate fighters with similiar records, for example Robinson and Duran were quite similar in terms of achievement, now you may use Sugar's speed, skills and footwork to give him the edge over Duran or you can use Duran's Power and skills to put him above Robinson. So following that thought I cannot put Jones Jr, nowhere near Leonard. So How do you guys judge the All Time list and what do you use to put Jones above Leonard.

    [ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Aymaco ]</p>
     
  16. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Lists are all in fun.

    You don't have to be an expert to put one together.

    But I will tell you one thing...RJJ cannot possibly be in any of mine (top 30).

    And in all honesty, I don't see any fighter from the last 20 years making the top 10 (with the ONLY exception of Duran).

    The game today is not the same as 30 years ago. Too much money has make the "sport" a BUSINESS.

    Funny thing, if I was in RJJ shoes, I would probably be doing the same.

    However, I wouldn't expect people to be following me or ranking me.

    My point...I don't have a problem with what RJJ is doing. But every action has a consequence. His is his place in History and the rankings.

    Something that he has made very clear, don't care about.
     
  17. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Valentino:


    In not particular order...

    1- Roberto Duran
    2- Ray Robinson
    3- Henry Amstrong
    4- Willie Pep
    5- Jim Wilder
    6- Muhamad Ali
    7- Harry Greb
    8- Benny Leonard
    9- Joe Louis
    10- Archie Moore
    11- Sam Langford
    12- Barney Ross
    13- Mickey Walker
    14- Edder Jofre
    15- Carlos Monzon
    16- Sugar Ray Leonard


    Notice that I don't have Arguello, Sanchez, Lopez, Chavez, Whitaker, Spinks, etc. posted.

    I cannot see how in hell can RJJ make the top 50.

    Especially, when the aforementioned fighters are well known for fight and defeating the BEST.

    RJJ place in history was left behind when he bullshit his way in the 168 lbs, and then bullshit his way in the 175 lbs.

    Shit...he can fight a HWY now, and it won't do him any good.
    It is NOT about ONE fight.

    It is about an ENTIRE career.

    9 years of bullshit is not going to convince me.

    He might be top 5 in the 90s. And I don't even think he is top 3 in the 1990s.
    <hr></blockquote>

    You certainly named the cream of the crop, at first glance I'd be inclined to throw in Hagler, Pasqual Perez, Tony Canzenori, and Joe Gans to lock down 20 spots.
     
  18. Mark G

    Mark G Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aymaco:
    Well since nobody is yet to run down their case for me and defend Jones Jr. So let's use Se?or Valentino's list and start with Ray Leonard I'm not a boxing expert but this is pretty much a list of his more meaningful fights and a list of Roy Jone's:

    Now Roy Jones in 1993 beats Bernard Hopkins (today believed to be the P4P #1) and defends against Thomas Tate, and then captures a tittle against James Toney, then goes up and fights Antoine Byrd, Vinny Pazienza, Eric Lucas and Mike McCallum. The beats Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, and Reggie Johnson.

    A case can be made that Ray Leonard belongs in the top 15 now let's see Leonard's record. Beats Wilfredo Benitez for the title, (believed to be one of Puerto Rico's best and youngest fighter to win title) defends it against Dave Green, and loses a some may say close fight to Roberto Duran, (arguably the best boxer in History) comes back and TKO's Duran in 8 rounds and Defends against Larry Bonds. Goes up to beat Ayub Kalule for the Super Welterwight title and proceeds to knock out Thomas Hearns. Comes out of retirement to beat Marvis Hagler and proceeds to beat Thomas Hearns on a rematch and Roberto Duran.

    Names that stick out on Leonards r?sum?: Dur?n, Hearns, Hargler, Benitez.

    all of them greats.

    Names that stick out of Jones's r?sum?: McCallum, Toney, Pazienza, and Hopkins.


    Now why is Roy Jones better?

    Like I said I am not a boxing expert but to me achievements are pretty much everything (beating the bests) talent and skill is what I use to separate fighters with similiar records, for example Robinson and Duran were quite similar in terms of achievement, now you may use Sugar's speed, skills and footwork to give him the edge over Duran or you can use Duran's Power and skills to put him above Robinson. So following that thought I cannot put Jones Jr, nowhere near Leonard. So How do you guys judge the All Time list and what do you use to put Jones above Leonard.

    [ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Aymaco ]
    <hr></blockquote>

    Ray Leonard is way ahead of Jones...he beat better opponents and proved himself in GREAT fights against GREAT opponents.
     
  19. Mark G

    Mark G Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Valentino:
    Lists are all in fun.

    You don't have to be an expert to put one together.

    But I will tell you one thing...RJJ cannot possibly be in any of mine (top 30).

    And in all honesty, I don't see any fighter from the last 20 years making the top 10 (with the ONLY exception of Duran).

    The game today is not the same as 30 years ago. Too much money has make the "sport" a BUSINESS.

    Funny thing, if I was in RJJ shoes, I would probably be doing the same.

    However, I wouldn't expect people to be following me or ranking me.

    My point...I don't have a problem with what RJJ is doing. But every action has a consequence. His is his place in History and the rankings.

    Something that he has made very clear, don't care about.
    <hr></blockquote>


    The best four fighters of our most recent times are.....Tito and Lopez....previous generation...Chavez and Whitaker. We've had some good heavyweights, but these guys are above them. There are some other excellent fighters as well...but these are the top four.

    [ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mark G ]</p>
     
  20. Remus

    Remus Member

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark G:
    The best four fighters of our most recent times are.....Tito and Lopez.<hr></blockquote>

    They are in fact two of my favourite fighters. Especially Finito, but questions can be raised on their historical standings aswell.
     

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