Why Duran and Robinson can be mentioned in the same breath.

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by TIP, Nov 22, 2003.

  1. TIP

    TIP Member

    Sugar Ray Robinson turned pro at age 19 after having a perfect 85-0 amateur record. The amateur background gave Robbie some experience turning pro. Conversely, Duran turned pro at 17 with less than 10 amateur fights. Sugar preceded to go and incredible 121-1-2 prior to turning 30. Duran went 72-2 before turning 30. Most of Robbie's matches were at 147 where he is considered to be at his best while most of Duran's were at 135 where he was at his best. Sugar moved up to 160 at age 29 and beat LaMotta. This is the same age Duran was when he beat Leonard for the 147 lb title. Robbie then loses to Turpin 5 months later at age 30. Duran 5 months later loses to Leonard. Who is facing the better comp? At 32 Robbie goes up to 175 and loses to Maxium due to heat exhaustion. Had the fight been a 12 rounder Robbie would have won. At the very same age 32 Duran moves up to fight Hagler. He tires badly and loses the last 3 rounds and the fight. Had the match been a 12 rder many had Duran ahead. Who was facing the better comp? After 30 Sugar Ray has some good wins over respectable opposition, Fullmer, Basilio, Moyer etc.. but he also loses to these guys and others. After 30 Duran also has some good wins, Moore, Cuevas, Barkley, Castro etc.. but also loses fights. So both Roberto and Sugar went up in weight after being 30 and beat some good opposition and lost against decent opponents. Robbie was best at 147 and Duran at 135 where both fought excellent opposition ducking no one while being virtually unbeatable. Greatness was established at their prime weights and to a degree bolstered by their success and failures moving up after age 30.

    It wasn't uncommon for fighters to downslide after 30. Most of them had an extensive number of matches prior to age 30. Unlike today, boxers had gained experience while still in their physical prime. Below are 4 examples of fighters who after turning 30 didn't do as well.

    Henry Armstrong- Hank started boxing pro at 19. He was 116-14 by the time he turned 30. His won/loss% wasn't as impressive as Duran's or Robinson's. However, Armstrong from age 25-28 fought 61 times and won the 126, 135 and 147lb titles going 59-1-1 with 49 ko's. Very impressive. Zivic beat Hank at age 28 twice. At 29 he lost to Shank, at 31 to Joyce, Beau Jack, Robinson, at 32 losses toJoyce again, Thimms and a draw with Slugger White. At 33 a loss and draw to Slider, he then retired.

    Willie Pep- He was 149-4-1 at the time he turned 30. Pep lost to Angott and Sadler three times. It should be noted that 3of the 4 losses occurred after Pep's devastating plane crash. At age 31 he lost to Perez, 32 dec by Tibbs, 36 ko'd by Bassey and 37 dec by Leon. Pep's last fight was at age 44 losing a dec to Woodland.

    Sandy Sadler- He retired at age 29 and went 17-6 in his last 23 fights. Sadler turned pro at 18 and went 115-7-2 up until then.

    Alexis Arguello- He started at age 16 and had a record of 74-4 when he turned 30.Two of his losses were to Duran ko victims Fernandez and Marcel. At age 30 and 31 Arguello and up in weight was ko'd by Pryor twice. The Explosive Thin Man was pretty much done by then but it should be noted he had a ko win over former 140lb titlist Billy Costello.

    Duran and Robbie fought far beyond in age then the noted greats above. Duran at age 46 splitting a couple fights with near prime former 160 lb titlist Jorge Castro. One of Roy Jones's best opponents. Robbie at age 37 ko'ing steel chin Gene Fullmer. These W's represent the skills both Duran and Sugar had even in advanced ages. Mentioning them in the same breath IMO is logical and realistic. TIP
     
  2. Lefthooker

    Lefthooker Member

    Great piece , TIP.
    Well written and well researched.
     
  3. andrew

    andrew Member

    Everything in that post was great, but i get tired of people saying this. They are both irrelevant. The fights were 15 rounders not 12. Both fighters trained for a 15 round fight and im pretty sure their fightplan was for 15 rounds not 12.
     
  4. andrew

    andrew Member

    Ohh shit theres a whole thread on what i just said, sorry.
     
  5. KoCav

    KoCav Guest

    Jesus Christ, at least disguise your bias for the guy. Duran beats a prime Castro and gets his ass handed to him by Joppy a year later? Very doubtful.
     
  6. TIP

    TIP Member

    I'm not Jesus Christ, only TIP. Whats your point that 29 year old Castro or 28 yr old Joppy weren't top rated fighters in their weight class? Or that its not uncommon for 46 yr old men to win fights against higher level opposition. Maybe you think its something other than skills that allows guys like Robinson and Duran to fight at advanced ages with some success? That was my point that the W's Robinson and Duran got against Fullmer and Castro represented the skills they had even at older ages. If that makes me bias so be it.
     
  7. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    lets examine the competition

    as a welterweight

    Robinson defeated

    Sammy Angott 64-13-5 (in the hall of fame)
    Sammy Angott 72-14-5(hall of fame)
    Sammy Angott 82-20-7(hall of fame)
    Marty Servo 43-0-2
    Marty Servo 44-1-2 for the WORLD Welterweight Title
    Fritzie Zivic 111-26-5(hall of fame)
    Fritzie Zicic 113-27-5 (hall of fame)
    Jake Lamotta 25-4-2(hall of fame)
    Jake Lamotta 31-5-2(hall of fame)
    Kid Gavilan 52-6-3(hall of fame)
    Charley Fusari 63-7-1

    as a middleweight

    Jake Lamotta 45-8-2(hall of fame)
    Jake Lamotta 52-9-2(hall of fame)
    Jake Lamotta 78-14-3 (hall of fame)
    Kid Gavilan 45-5-3(hall of fame)
    Carl Bobo Olson (43-3-0)
    Carl Bobo Olson (50-5-0)

    ok im getting tired

    let me make it shorter

    cont. at middleweight....Carmen Basilio(HF)..Bobo Olson 2 more times..Gene Fulmer(HF)..Denny Moyer...Rocky Castellani, Randy Turpin

    ok anyhow..i have evel left out some guys who had great records but that i dont know about...

    anyhow...i also left out fighters that robinson beat who were past their prime such as armstrong, rocky graziano..etc...etc..

    now put a list of the guys duran beat..LOL..NO comparison
     
  8. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    How old were those guys? At what stage of their careers they got beat by SRR? Etc.

    I mean?I can imagine an individual like YOU in the future (50 years from now) saying that Tszyu was greater than let?s say (for argument sake) Trinidad?because Tszyu defeated the HALL OF FAMER Julio Cesar Chavez.
     
  9. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Sammy Angott:

    Let's start by saying that this guy was a fucking MIDGET (5' 8") and that he was a LIGHTWEIGHT. And as a lightweight, he fought the Welterweight Robinson.

    It is the equivalent of saying that Mayorga is great because he defeated PBF or some other lightweight.
     
  10. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Ever heard of Joey Ferrando, Billy Celebron, Eddie Cool, Chuck Woods, Gene Buffalo, Anacleto Locatelli, Tommy Bland, Johnny Barbara, Mike Kaplan? Theser are SOME (there are many more) of the fighters that defeated ZIVIC prior to Sugar Ray Robinson.

    I guess that was a heck of an accomplishment... :rolleyes:

    Let rank them ABOVE Duran too.
     
  11. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Jake LaMOtta is one of the most overrated fighters of all time. He was ANOTHER Arturo Gatti.
     
  12. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    LOL....he would have beaten the shit out of Duran at middleweight..thats for sure
     
  13. KoCav

    KoCav Guest

    My point is that Castro wasn't near his prime.
     
  14. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    by the way..give me a list of fighters that Duran beat that we can compare with
     
  15. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    For sure?

    Let's see...who was greater...Hagler or LaMata?

    And I don't think Hagler beat the shit out of Duran at middleweight.
     
  16. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Almost midnight. Need to go to bed.

    I will post some of them during the week.
     
  17. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Sugar Ray Leonard was one of them. By the way.
     
  18. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    here we go again..praising Duran for LOSING to Hagler...the guy lost to Leanord 2 out 3..Hagler..gets face planted by Hearns
     
  19. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    You're missing the point. He was a blown up lightweight way past his prime against Hagler yet almost pulled it out. The last loss to Leonard is meaningless considering that Duran was a corpse by then.

    Lamotta never had Hearns power. Hearns was tall and could freakin' punch. I don't think it's ridiculous to think that Duran could've beaten Lamotta. Lamotta wasn't all that.
     
  20. TIP

    TIP Member

    Many were heaping praise on RJ for fighting a half assed heavyweight contender. Why wouldn't Duran than fighting 25 lbs over his best weight get some recognition for holding his own with Hagler, who some rate as the best 160 lb ever? Don't forget Duran at age 37 defeats and knocks down Barkley who 8 months earlier had ko'd Hearns.

    As for comparing the comp between Duran and Robbie. They both fought excellent competition. You mentioned some of Robbie's, here are some of Duran's.

    Ernesto Marcel- 41-4 wba featherweight champ never ko'd in any of his losses except for the Duran loss. Duran and Marcel fought at Jr. Light level. Marcel's last fight was a win over Arguello who was trying to win his title.

    Ken Buchannon 56-3 HOF er

    Estaban Dejesus- possible future HOF beat everyone at 135, probably would have ruled the roost if not for Duran.

    Ishimatsu Susuki- WBC 135 title- w over Buchannon, and 2 ko w's over very tough underated Rodolfo Gonzalez

    Saoul Mamby- WBC 140 lb titlist.

    Carlos Palimino WBC 147 title

    Ray Leonard- future HOF'er

    Pipino Cuevas - HOF'er

    Other very good fighters were Lampkin, Viruet, Moore, Barkley Fernandez and Castro.

    Very few fighters except for Armstrong Duran and maybe a couple others can favorably compare to SRR. I rate Robbie a bit higher than Duran but only a bit.
     

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