My post-1940 "Who-Beats-Who?" List

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Joonie73, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    I came up with a post-1940s list of top 6 in each of the traditional 8 divisions in terms of "who-beats-who?" I made the cut-off at 1940s for 2 reasons. 1. There just isn't enough footage of most of the pre-1940 fighters to get an accurate measure of how they would fare v. fighters with whom we have far greater video exposure. 2. I know I am going to invite a lot of disagreement, but I truly believe that most of the pre-Robinson, pre-Lewis greats would have difficulty competing with more modern greats due to technical disparity. (Let's please not have this debate in this thread.) Of course, it goes without saying that this is a tentative list & I am more than willing to re-consider.

    Flyweight:
    1. Pascual Perez
    2. Fighting Harada
    3. Jung-Koo Chang
    4. Hiroyuki Ebihara
    5. Masao Ohba
    6. Mark Johnson

    Bantamweight:
    1. Eder Jofre
    2. Carlos Zarate
    3. Ruben Olivares
    4. Fighting Harada
    5. Alfonso Zamora
    6. Orlando Canizales

    Featherweight:
    1. Willie Pep
    2. Henry Armstrong
    3. Sandy Saddler
    4. Salvador Sanchez
    5. Alexis Arguello
    6. Azumah Nelson

    Lightweight:
    1. Roberto Duran
    2. Henry Armstrong
    3. Ike Williams
    4. Aaron Pryor
    5. Pernell Whitaker
    6. Alexis Arguello

    Welterweight:
    1. Ray Robinson
    2. Ray Leonard
    3. Thomas Hearns
    4. Roberto Duran
    5. Jose Napoles
    6. Kid Gavilan

    Middleweight:
    1. Ray Robinson
    2. Marvin Hagler
    3. Carlos Monzon
    4. Roy Jones
    5. Dick Tiger
    6. Marcel Cerdan

    Light Heavyweight:
    1. Ezzard Charles
    2. Bob Foster
    3. Michael Spinks
    4. Billy Conn
    5. Archie Moore
    6. Roy Jones

    Heavyweight:
    1. Muhammad Ali
    2. Sonny Liston
    3. Larry Holmes
    4. Mike Tyson
    5. George Foreman
    6. Lennox Lewis
     
  2. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Just two quick things. Both in the middleweights. I like Ray Robinson as number one. I'm not sure how many will agree with that but I do, and I love the Dick Tiger placement.
     
  3. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    I don?t see three of the MOST dominant fighters with over 10 consecutive years (from start of career) with a PERFECT record, and over 8 consecutive years as Champions, and over 20 consecutive World Title victories: Ricardo Lopez, J.C. Chavez, and Felix Trinidad.

    Are they greater than some of those fighters? Maybe not.

    However, they are the only three fighters in boxing HISTORY that have accomplished SIMULTANEOUSLY what I just stated in my first paragraph.

    Meaning that they PROVED that they are WINNERS.

    And this thread is about who beats who.

    Lopez, Chavez, and Tito proved that they could beat their opponents and do so in consistent basis. Everybody else in that list PROVED that they could lose. In fact, they PROVED that they could lose to LESSER opposition.

    Lopez should go in the Flyweights.
    Chavez in the Lightweights.
    Trinidad in the Welterweights.
     
  4. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    By the way...the same applies with Monzon (way too low). This guy PROVED that he is a winner.

    And Marciano.
     
  5. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Shit...where is Eusebio Pedroza? Nelson in? But NOT Pedroza?

    I see?this is the list of who was more famous and flashy?and not the list of who was EFFECTIVE with their styles.

    [ February 06, 2004, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: Valentino ]
     
  6. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Good choices on Liston (Hwy), Conn (Lt. Hwy), Tiger (Middle), Napoles (Welter), Williams (Light), Arguello (Feather), Canizalez (Battam), Pascual Perez (Fly).

    Those guys are typically overlooked.
     
  7. Hawktime

    Hawktime Guest

    I doubt many will agree but i would have the late 80s Goosens Michael Nunn on the middleweights who beats who list.

    I probably hold Nunn in higher regard than most.I don't think he had a single weakness skills wise at 160 and he had very underrated power.His only flaws were mental ones and as a who beats who takes someone at their absolute best at the respective weight then that isn't a factor.I'd probably pick the best Nunn to beat all the other post Hagler middles(yes, including Roy Jones)

    I like the Liston pick.
     
  8. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    You may be right about Nunn. But I am not as familiar with him. This is a very tentative list, as I said.

     
  9. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Agreed about Nunn.
     
  10. joonie, which Too Sharp fights have you seen?
     
  11. excluding the Marquez fights.
     
  12. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    I'd be hard pressed to pick Trinidad over any of the fighters on the welterweight list.
     
  13. Lefthooker

    Lefthooker Member

    I think he competes well with any of them on a given night, although I would have no argument with placing him somewhere outside of this top 6.
    Duran ( my all-time favorite fighter), is a little shaky here because WW was not his best weight, although strangely it is where he had his most remarkable performance (Leonard).
     
  14. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    The nights he beat Palomino and Leonard, Trinidad wouldn't have a hope in hell of lasting the distance. I can't place Trinidad in the top ten.

    [ February 06, 2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Tam-Tam ]
     
  15. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    Not as much as I would like. Marquez I, II, Montiel, Johnson, Lacierva, Vorapin.

     
  16. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    I agree.

     
  17. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    I agree.

     
  18. Lefthooker

    Lefthooker Member

    No surprise there, I'd be amazed if you could squeeze him into your top 25.
    I certainly concur - and have stated repeatedly - that the demonic version of Duran that overwhelmed Leonard was virtually unbeatable by ANY WW in memory, with the possible exception of Robinson ( Armstrong was too small IMO ).
    Palimino, on the other hand, was totally flat and petrified of Duran, he fought scared all night.
    As stated, Duran is my favorite all time fighter, but looked - at WW - very beatable on many nights.
    Wasn't Kirkland Laing at WW?
    Trinidad posted 40 wins ( 20 title fights) at WW.
    I never do lists, but if I get a little time, I will compile a top 10 WW list, just to see if Trinidad does make it...it will be interesting.
     
  19. Lefthooker

    Lefthooker Member

    No Chavez at lightweight, but Pryor?
    Can't agree with that one either.
     
  20. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    It was my understanding that this was strictly a who-beats-who list. Trinidad doesn't make the list because only his talent and abilities against other greats are in question - not his achievments. On that, Felix doesn't cut the mustard IMO.

    And in an actual ranking of welterweights (including pre-1940 fighters), he doesn't make my ten either.

    1. Ray Robinson
    2. Ray Leonard
    3. Henry Armstrong
    4. Kid Gavilan
    5. Emile Griffith
    6. Jose Napoles
    7. Thomas Hearns
    8. Mickey Walker
    9. Luis Rodriguez
    10. Carmen Basilio
     

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