Is Manny Paquiao GOAT material?

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Mexican Eagle, Jan 3, 2011.

?

Is Manny greater than?

  1. De La Hoya

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Roy Jones Jr

    4 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Roberto Duran

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Ali

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. TIP

    TIP Member

    Hopkins was in prison in his junior year of high school. He got out at age 23 and turned pro. The majority of his amateur bouts were as a youth and some while in prison. The best fighter he fought was either Gilbert Baptist or Wayne Powel both journeymen. Roy on the other hand had a stellar amateur career and for all practical purposes won the gold medal. His pro career was also more challenging up to the Hopkins fight. A W over Jorge Castro is seriously more impressive then Baptist or Powel. So basically Hopkins was talented but in the process of learning his trade while Roy was quite polished. It isn't nonsense to say Hopkins was inexperienced compared to Roy the first time they fought. Incidentally, I would argue that Castro was Roy's best opponent up until Toney. TIP
     
  2. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Didn't that Ali guy beat that Spinks character in a rematch when by your own admission he had nothing left? That's one more glorious moment than one Roy Jones Jr had when his sped and athleticism left him.
     
  3. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Somewhere I have the press reports of Hopkins first fight, I'm going to dig that up and post it, from what I remember it wasn't very complimentary.
     
  4. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    If the higher weight was "too big" for him, why has he never been able to go back down to 168?
     
  5. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Toney received a gift against Tiberi and that was several years before he faced off against RJJ.

    Yes, I feel JMM defeated Pacquiao both times, but that's merely a testament to JMM's quality. JMM also happens to be one of the greatest Mexican fighters to ever lace em' up, a featherweight who IMO would've stood a chance against all the great featherweights.

    Barrera was considered one of the best fighters in boxing when Pacquiao, the big underdog, destroyed him. Did you forget Pacquiao was the dog in that one?
     
  6. TIP

    TIP Member

    And why was he ripped at 193 lbs when he fought Ruiz? Roy started fighting at 175 when he was 27 yrs old about to turn 28 a prime athletic age. Jones's height and reach were right in the middle as compared to other 175 lb champions/belt holders. If my memory is correct Quawi was the shortest and Foster was the tallest. TIP
     
  7. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Exactly. I don't recall any reports stating RJJ thoroughly dominated Hopkins. In fact, the fight was more competitive than RJJ anticipated. That's why he came up with the injury excuse. He needed an out.
     
  8. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    You're talking to a huge Ali fan Matos, I know what he did....but did he look good in the Spinks rematch? I don't remember it that way, I remember that Spinks did all his training in a drunken, coke fuelled haze and he wasn't even that good to begin with. He was taken as an easy defense and because Ali was shot to shit at that point and suffering with Parkinsons he lost, the fact that he was able to avenge it showed how great he was for sure, I love the guy but I'm also prepared to give him his excuses when he was clearly past it, same as I am with Jones because when he was right, he was unbeatable just like Jones was.
     
  9. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    I'm sure he could have boiled back down to 168 had he wanted to...but why would he? Maybe you're a little young to remember it but back then 168 was a relatively new division and considered to be a hiding place so he put on the weight and went up to 175 for 2 reasons. First reason was there were no challenges left at 168 and the major reason was that 175 was a far more respected division as it was one of the original 8, I thought you respected that kind of thing, sure I've read it in your posts about fighters other than Jones :24:
     
  10. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Wasn't Jones the underdog when he fought Toney? I seem to remember he was....of course you'll bring up reasons why Toney was shit, I'll point out that Barrera had lost in the past in far worse fashion than he lost to Pac which will bring down Pacs win and JMM's performances against him too...easy game to play.

    The correct thing to say would be that James Toney is a great fighter, and he never won a single round against Jones Jr, and then to go on and give Jones respect for that performance but as a hater you have to piss on it.
     
  11. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    He needed an out in a fight he comprehensively won on all the cards :slap:

    Unbelievable.
     
  12. TIP

    TIP Member

    There certainly were credible challenges at 168 during the time Roy was there. Lets see there was Frankie Liles who had some tooth and nail matches with Roy in the amateurs and once gave him a standing 8 count. The olympic box off Roy had with Liles was so close it could have went either way, three judges had it for Roy and two for Liles. Liles won the WBA version of the 168 pound title. a few months prior to Jones/Toney. Tim Littles was a top contender with a good amateur career back then and had a dec victory over Liles in 92. Former Middleweight champ Michael Nunn was there begging for Jones to fight him. Eubank, Collins and Benn were also there. Although Benn made a complimentary statement about Roy saying he wouldn't want to fight him, but he's a prize fighter and facing Jones was the biggest prize. Many fighters say things like that in respect to other fighters, I remember Foreman being in awe of Frazier. How many guys must have been concerned over the punching power of Tyson, Liston, Foreman, Duran, Hearns etc.... yet everyone wanted to fight them because they were the champs and were the biggest money fights. If these guys weren't frightened by by the above punchers why would Benn a puncher himself be afraid? He fought McClellan a murderous puncher and he was afraid of Roy, nonsense, he's a prize fighter. These 6 opponents were far better than the 6 guys Roy being, in the drivers seat as a belt holder and marquee fighter chose to defend against at 168.

    I think Roy is a shoo in for the HOF and a great boxer who was highly talented. Jones best wins were against, Castro, Thomas Tate, Toney, Griffin, Hill, Harding and Tarver. Of these I'd say the Castro win was excellent in that Jorge was experienced talented and very tough, for years Roy said it was his toughest match. Probably next was his gritty performance in the first Tarver fight. The Toney fight was marred (not Roy's fault) by Toney weighing 214 lbs a few weeks before the match. However, it was a good win because Toney was still formidable. That all said Jones did not seek out the best opponents like the all time elite fighters did and that does factor in on an evaluation of his career. TIP
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2011
  13. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Of course he didn't look good he no longer possessed the speed and atleticism remember?
     
  14. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member


    I was talking about Hopkins professional debut. My bad.
     
  15. is it true ali did not train and took spinks way too lightly?
     
  16. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member


    Eddie Futch was working woth Joe Fraizer and he noticed that Frazier was going to the ropes during sparring so he asked Georgie Benton what he saw and Benton told him Joe's legs were starting to go and he needed to rest them during the course of a round. Ali's legs had been going for a while in fact they never really came back after the exile so Spinks fireplug motivated style of that particular night would have made him smoke at that stage of his career anyway. another good example of that is Roy Jones Jr. he started spending more and more time along the ropes as he got along because the legs couldn't do three minutes anymore. Thats the tell tale sign when a fighter is slipping is when he seeks respite on the ropes, I've noticed that in Pacquaio in spots and Mayweather Jr., subtle but the beginnings. I listed Foster-Ahumda on another thread and I saw that fight and I hadn't seen Foster in a couple of years and sure enough there he was for portions with his back to the ropes, legs gone. Happens to 99.9%, the legs go first.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2011
  17. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    I know...what I was trying to say was that Spinks wasn't that great an opponent, great win but against shabby competition. Similar to Jones beating Trinidad or Lacy in fact, he showed flashes of the 'old Roy' in those because it was easy for him to do it, same as it was for Ali against Spinks. Not comparing the 2 obviously I'm just saying that despite being shot it's not like Jones lost every fight he was in after the Tarver and Johnson losses.
     
  18. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Trinidad was a complete shell by then and Lacy has been complete crap himself since the Calzaghe loss. Even Kimba would've looked like a prime Ray Robinson against those two at that point.
     
  19. mikE

    mikE Member

    Excellent post.

    I particularly like how you address the statement Benn made about Roy that many people try to elevate into meaning something substantive.
     
  20. Its too bad we never saw ol roy vs mcclellan

    what a fight that could have been!
     

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