How great is Bernard Hopkins?

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Rebel, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. Jack1000

    Jack1000 Boxing Fanatic

    Exactly,

    And when Jones beat Ruiz, Max Kellerman was raving accolades on Roy, claiming him to be equal to Sugar Ray Robinson, cause he beat John "Fucking" Ruiz. There are two things that are sort of good about Ruiz though. Despite his average ability, he didn't make excuses and was willing to fight guys, and of course, Norman Stone was always entertaining!!!

    Think about it if Bowe was still around and Ruiz was still around and they fought. The pre-fight and post fight antics of Rock Newman and Norman Stone would be some of the most entertaining TV ever!!!!! hahahah!!

    Jack
     
  2. Mark G

    Mark G Member


    Great point!
     
  3. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Yeah but he lost to Pac....Jones beat Hopkins and Toney.

    I see your point though, JMM is allowed an excuse whereas Jones isn't...now why is that?

    :slap: Now tell me about the top guys that Jones avoided in his career ranging from 145 right up to HW?

    Feel free, and I'll dismantle JMM's resume in the same way :thumb:
     
  4. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great


    Erm, no, it's a shit point. Name me a list of fighters who dominated Ruiz like Jones did?

    Oh shit, your argument falls over right there doesn't it?

    I'll readily accept that Ruiz was the worst of the champs when Jones fought him, but was he really that bad? I don't think so personally. Of course you haters will piss on him but that was a monumental win for a forner MW. The manner in which he did it was impressive too, who else has done that to Ruiz?

    Let's see Hopkins pull off a win like that before we compare notes....but he never has, has he? He's come close s few times and bitched about the cards, but he's never actually done that. He beat the guy that beat Jones therefore the haters are out...:slap:
     
  5. Joe King

    Joe King Member

    Outside of Lewis and the Klits, Ruiz has been the best heavyweight in the past decade. You read that right.
     
  6. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Many people don't feel he's ever lost to Pac. So that settles that.

    Jones avoided the following fighters during his peak years. Benn, G-Man, Collins, Hopkins, Dariusz M., Jirov.

    On the other hand, JMM avoided no one. He was the one that was avoided by Hamed, Barrera, Morales.
     
  7. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Yeah right. Ruiz lost (Yes, I know the Toney result was changed but he was utterly schooled) to two former middleweight champions. That's nothing to be proud of.
     
  8. TIP

    TIP Member



    You readily accept that Ruiz was one of the worst belt holders when Jones fought him. Would you also accept that the heavyweight division was one of the worst?? James Toney weighed 233 lbs at weigh in and probably more for Ruiz at fight time. He was terribly out of shape and yet dominated Ruiz. He was a former 160 lber also. Now for a little contrast, Toney weighed 179 lbs at weigh in when he fought Drake Thadsi and lost, he was in a near prime age of 29 at the time. He was 37 yrs old when he fought Ruiz who was 33.

    Now I'm not saying Roy isn't a great fighter, I am saying the Ruiz fight was blown up like it was some huge feat. There were people claiming Roy's life was in danger stepping into the ring with Ruiz. So where was all the concern and huge feat talk when Toney moved up and fought Holyfield, Ruiz, Peter etc... There was all this OMG what an incredible challenge talk for Roy but not for Toney, Adamek or Moorer, why was that. Simply because it was dramatically and highly overblown. Jimmy Ellis fought a good portion of his career at 160 and lost to some notable fighters including George Benton, Ruben Carter and Don Fullmer. Yet Ellis goes up to heavyweight and beats Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry and George Chuvalo. There wasn't any OMG what a feat stuff being said then either. Mickey Walker was a former welterweight and middleweight champion who fought numerous heavyweights including Jack Sharkey and Max Schmeling. Walker numerous times gave up big weight to heavyweights.

    So Jones who grew into a light heavy moving up and fighting a heavyweight wasn't this incredible feat. I'll give Ruiz credit in the sense he made the most out of what little ability he had, but in some era's of heavyweights he would have been a journeyman. Clearly talent and skill in boxing overshadows weight and size differences. Tarver, Dariuz, and several other 175lbers were far more challenging opponents than Ruiz was. TIP
     
  9. I'll take speed over size anytime....I was surprised the fight even happened, as I remember that was the big question back then...who could forget ol roy vs buster douglas? :haha:

    Then I saw it on caesar's big board and we had a fight

    While I admire Louise's comeback from getting ktfo by tua, let's not kid ourselves..
    He sucked and was the worst of the champs

    Lennox Lewis would have destroyed him.

    jones-byrd or jones-holy would have been a better test for ol roy

    It was always ruiz, dk and his tag team partner, Joe "fair but firm my azz" cortez..3 against 1

    Tell me that wasn't a clean belt shot body shot in rd 10( 2nd holyfield fight) that should have ended it right there. Instead that moron cortez rules it incorrectly a low blow

    We maybe not even talking about ol roy-louise...

    does anyone really think a prime holy would 'struggle' with louise?

    thats all you need to know about johnny louise ruiz....he was a cockroach for many yrs that was finally exterminated when he reitired....his style was terrible...hold hold and more holding..only akinwande vs lewis was worst
     
  10. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Great post.

    Adding to this, I believe Toney's performance in the 1st Peter fight was more impressive than Jones' against Ruiz. At the time, Peter was a prime puncher, a much more dangerous fighter than John Ruiz ever was. I thought that out of shape/former middleweight defeated Peter in the first fight. Nevermind what the judges scorecards rendered. You know how I feel about judges and their oft times questionable decisions. Sure it was a close fight, but in my view, Toney edged it.

    If some delusional fans want to overblow Jones' victory over Ruiz the titlist, they better give Toney props because he's been more impressive at heavyweight than RJJ. I'm sorry but one easy victory over a handpicked titlist doesn't cut it for me.
     
  11. TIP

    TIP Member

    I thought Toney edged Peter the first time too. If ever someone was in danger of seriously getting hurt it certainly was Toney being out of shape against monster punching Peter twice. A case like that illustrates just how much skill/talent has over size difference, and that has been demonstrated numerous times in boxing throughout the decades but somehow when Roy does it, its an incredible feat. TIP
     
  12. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Nope. Jones didn't avoid Benn or any of those others - they avoided him. Definately the case with Benn, Collins, DM and Jirov. How you can say Jones avoided Hopkins is unreal, he fucking beat him :slap: G-Man wasn't even in the equation for obvious reasons after the Benn fight, Benn didn't want any part of Jones and has been quoted on that several times, same as Eubank. Collins postured a bit about fighting Jones, same as Calzaghe did but they both wanted Jones to move back to 168 and they were in no position to make demands to the P4P number 1, end of story.

    Of course JMM avoided no-one....you like him, and hate Jones.
     
  13. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Yet people are giving Toney plaudits against Peter, who was shit, and giving Jones no plaudits against Ruiz, who was better :headscratch: I just don't get it, I'm a huge Toney fan and yes his performance against Peter was great, full respect to him for it. But no respect for Jones beating a better fighter?

    It's just irrational.
     
  14. TIP

    TIP Member


    Toney beat the crap out of Ruiz and had a hard time with Peter. Toney also easily ko'd a shot Holyfield who Ruiz went tooth and nail with. The heavyweights sucked, imagine a blown up blubbery out of shape ex middleweight beating up on a bunch of top heavyweights.What does that rationally tell you? TIP
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  15. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Me thinks you missed the point. Fighters throughout the decades have used skill, ,knowledge and experience to defeat fighters much bigger than themselves. Also touches on the point that the Jones Jr.-Ruiz fight was misrepresented by the majority of his supporters as a fight in which Jones Jr. was facing a danger and a peril that no man let alone a boxer had ever faced in the annals of history and would have you believe that Jones was in bigger danger than David was when he faced off against Goliath. Would have you believe that because Roy Jones Jr. was in the opposite corner that overnight John Ruiz was transformed into a murderous punching heavyweight with the ability to lay to waste and take the head off any fighter he faced, again a misrepresentation.
     
  16. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    No.....I never believed any of that at all, but I do think that Ruiz is criminally under-rated by people, not the best champion ever obviously but there's been worse belt holders than him in the last 20 years or so. It's always an achievement when a smaller guy beats a bigger champion, except when Jones does it :headscratch:
     
  17. Jack1000

    Jack1000 Boxing Fanatic

    And remember this was John Ruiz, who got smashed inside of 20 SECONDS by David Tua. Yet Roy gets these accolades from his supporters by dominating him. A heavyweight belt holder yes. But a fight still orchestrated by Roy to make him look good against an opponent who was not that good in the first place. You have to put Ruiz in perspective too when you discuss Roy's win against him.

    Jack
     
  18. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Okay I see where you are, we're looking at it from opposite sides of the spectrum and I don't mean that in a bad way.
     
  19. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    That's fair enough, I don't mind admitting I'm a Jones fan and biased because of it, but when people say beating Sam Peter is impressive but beating Ruiz isn't, I have to shake my head, even if I wasn't a Jones fan I'd find that a strange thing to say. Peter was dogshit, a far worse fighter than Ruiz :lol:

    It's also funny that people bring up the Ruiz being smashed in a round by Tua thing too....you could just as easily say Hopkins beat the Jones that had just been smashed inside a round by a bum, just to put that match into perspective. I always quite liked Ruiz determination myself, yes he was a poor fighter but at least he always showed up in shape and ready willing and able to go 12 rounds, something 90% of the other HW's today don't bother doing.
     
  20. TysonFan

    TysonFan Sensei

    I don't ever remember Ruiz being a lineal champ. Roy beating Ruiz isn't the same as Michael Spinks beating Larry Holmes.
     

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