(HBO) Hopkins vs. Pascal 2, Dawson vs. Diaconu (May 21) - 10PM ET/7PM PT

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Boxingfanatics.com, May 21, 2011.

  1. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    :haha::haha::haha:

    Love the way Jones is 'barely' and Hopkins is 'arguably', depends on who's doing the arguing I guess. You do remember that Jones was a natural MW don't you, who moved up because there was basically no-one else to beat and he wanted to get belts at other weights? Any other fighter would be applauded for that shit like Pac is, but no, Jones gets hated for it, it's astounding.

    Hopkins holds victories over fighters that knocked out shot Jones yes, I didn't realise that was a criteria for greatness though...I guess everyone that beat Trevor Berbick was great by proxy then seeing as he beat shot to shit Ali. Same goes for Brian Neilsen who beat Holmes :haha:

    The longevity doesn't end the discussion, not by a long shot. Jones beat Hopkins easily when they were both close to prime, Hopkins stayed at 160 and fed off less than stellar competition, Jones moved up to fight guys that were just as bad but were naturally bigger than him. Hopkins had plenty of chances to move up to avenge that defeat but refused to do so until it was utterly meaningless. Had Jones decided to stay at 160 then Hopkins wouldn't even be a footnote at 160 and you know it.
     
  2. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    The scorecards suggest that you're wrong.
     
  3. "The Ghost of Jones"? The same Jones who only two fights earlier accomplished the amazing feat of defeating the indestructible John Ruiz? WTF dude. Stop making excuses. Ruiz was a third string belt holder and nobody seriously considers him otherwise.

    Tarver KO'd Jones when Jones was considered P4P #1 or 2 in the world. Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal are ALL better than John Ruiz. The guy just sucked and it's astounding that you keep propping him up as this amazing heavyweight accomplishment.
     
  4. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Rebel he lost his next fight.
     
  5. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Nobody said Ruiz was indestructible, just that it was an amazing achievement for a former MW. It seems that rule only applies for fighters other than Jones though, when Jones does it he was fighting a bum, when Hopkins beats Pascal or Tarver it's a GREAT achievement - and most of you forget Jones actually beat Tarver in that first fight.

    It's hilarious the hatred, it really is. I've no problem with people giving Hop and Toney credit I really don't, I'm fans of both of them but the dismissing of Jones achievements is really sad considering this is supposed to be a knowledgable forum. Even the moderators here talk bollocks out of hatred and that's not something I'm used to on the net.

    Pascal better than Ruiz? Fuck off, Pascal just stinks. Tarver is only considered better than Ruiz because he got Jones at the right time and was somehow elevated to an ATG when Hopkins beat him by those with an agenda. Pavlik is only famous for KO'ing Jermain Taylor who got famous for..... beating Hopkins twice :lol: All those fighters are seriously flawed just like Ruiz was only Hopkins wasn't giving away 25lbs in weight when he fought them. Wise move in hindsight.
     
  6. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Wasting your time Matos..you're dealing with irrational hatred here. I'm fed up with it myself, not going to bother responding any more I'll just take comfort in Jones being the fighter of the decade in the 90's, something Hopkins will never achieve, mediocre opposition once you're past 40 means you're all of a sudden 'great' on planet Rebel for some reason. I prefer to judge fighters when they're at their best myself, and at his best Jones smashed Hopkins to pieces. Painful for the haters who still make excuses for it but I'm lolling at them anyway.
     
  7. I'm happy to give credit for what Jones achieved I just think elevating Roy above Hopkins based on the Ruiz fight is a stupid thing to do considering Toney also moved up from middleweight and beat the guy and I think NO ONE would sensibly think that beating Ruiz made Jones a legitimate heavyweight champ.
     
  8. Those guys were at least among the best at their weight class at the time. Ruiz was a JOKE at the time and everybody knew it. He was just waiting for the right fighter to come along and take his belt. Shit, if Toney hadn't been popped for drug use would we even be having this conversation? He beat Ruiz much easier than Jones and he started at middleweight too. 25 lbs doesn't mean shit when the fighter is poor quality and Ruiz was a paper champion by any sensible definition.
     
  9. Roy did what he did but it's a complete exaggeration to say he "smashed Hopkins to pieces". He won a decision 116-112. 8-4 is dominant decision but not exactly "smashing to pieces" is it?
     
  10. Valdosta

    Valdosta Boxing Fanatics Moderator

    It's also a a complete exaggeration to say Toney beat Ruiz much easier than Jones. Roy won more rounds against Ruiz than Toney did.
     
  11. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    You forget, it's OK for the Jones haters to exagerrate, the mockery only works one way I'm afraid.
     
  12. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    It is when you consider that Jones was fighting with one hand, yes.
     
  13. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    I don't care if they were best at their weight class at the time, the truth is they weren't that good. Pascal just stinks, Pavlik was fighting above his natural weight and most likely suffering with alcohol abuse problems judging by what we know now, and Tarver was just a chancer who caught the ghost of Jones and never did anything else of note, ever. I'd say all 3 of those were comparable to the Ruiz win for Jones when you consider the circumstances Hopkins beat them in....if he wasn't so damn old it'd mean nothing at all but it's Hopkins, everyones jumping on his sack because he's still doing it at 46. Yeah it's an amazing achievement but the fact is at his prime he wasn't close to being as good as Jones Jr was in his prime.
     
  14. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    He was declining before he even fought Clinton Woods? Based on what? He was still your #1 p4p fighter and didn't fall off the top until the Tarver rematch.

    Don't compare Jones to Leonard. Leonard took many years off but was still able to come back from retirement to outpoint a middleweight monster, one of the best middleweights of all-time in Hagler. Jones hasn't done crap since he was KOd by Tarver and what he did prior doesn't compare to what Leonard accomplished at welterweight.
     
  15. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    He was in his 5th year of his 20+ year career. Of course he was green.

    So because Hopkins ended up having a great career, Jones somehow inherits his greatness? Clinton Mitchell handed Hopkins his first pro loss. Does that make him great? What about Baby Manuel, Baby Arizmendi, Rodolfo Casanova, Davey Abad, and the many others that defeated Armstrong prior to him hitting his prime? Are they legends too?
     
  16. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Jones Jr. wasn't a natural middleweight. Natural middleweights have most of their career bouts at middleweight. Such is not the case with Jones who significantly had more bouts at 168-175 than he did at middleweight.

    And again, beating a green all-time great doesn't make a fighter greater. As I've pointed out before, lesser fighters have defeated some of the greatest fighters of all-time. What Hopkins has accomplished past-prime is the icing on the cake that shuts the door on this argument.

    Thankfully, more will share my view than yours when it's all said and done. :smiles::
     
  17. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I thought Pascal defeated Hopkins? Reality says you're wrong.
     
  18. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Keep in mind that was against one of the sturdiest light heavyweights to come around in the last 10 years. Johnson at light heavy was no joke. It's not like he lost to some bum.
     
  19. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Hopkins smashed Jones? You're sitting here calling us irrational but then you bust out with that classic?

    I have comfort in knowing that ultimately boxing history will remember those two the way I remember them.
     
  20. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    He lost to one of the sturdiest lightheavyweights around?. See you can't even say he lost to one of the best around, or one of the better around, or one of the ten best around. No the best you could come up with was he lost to a sturdy lightheavyweight. If thats the case match the Christmas Ham with my workbench. He lost to sturdy(Johnson), lost to speed(Dawson) and lost to experience(Hopkins). Whats left? Come on now, since the turn of the century he's 12-6. You can dress him up but you can't go nowhere with him. You're talking about a man who started late and I see a man who finished early.
     

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