(HBO) Hopkins vs. Pascal 2, Dawson vs. Diaconu (May 21) - 10PM ET/7PM PT

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Boxingfanatics.com, May 21, 2011.

  1. Valdosta

    Valdosta Boxing Fanatics Moderator

    Those are nice words but don't you mention often times that they favor Americans over other countries often? That and Jones standing at the time more than likely would have gotten him there title at some point. Especially when you look at the disparity in opposition that Jones and Darius fought.
     
  2. Valdosta

    Valdosta Boxing Fanatics Moderator

    In fact Darius lost to Julio Gonzalez before Jones beat Tarver in there first fight. Pretty hard to argue a case against Jones at that point.
     
  3. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    That's debatable but this isn't....

    Out of their current 6 champions, 5 of them showed balls by fighting outside of their home countries to earn the distinction. Hopkins, Segura, Marquez, Martinez, and Pongsaklek. Even Pong did it by fighting in Japan.
     
  4. Jack1000

    Jack1000 Boxing Fanatic

    Agree,

    Roy may have been the more natural athlete. But Hopkins worked harder, took more risks, and fought better competition. The won over Hopkins in the first fight was certainly good for Jones. However, Bernard was very inexperienced back than. I think Hopkins should have avenged that loss earlier. Jones may have had the natural ability to do more, but he didn't capitalize on it throughout his career. Roy fought too many second-rate fighters.

    I also think that Hopkins would have been willing to fight say a prime Hagler, in a hypothetical matchup. Jones, not so much. Roy was too concerned about getting hurt in the ring during his prime and avoided prime punchers because of this. We don't know how Jones would have been able to swallow the hard punches of the Lamotta's, Hagler's, and Hearn's of the past. I could see Jones making excuses to avoid these greats because of fear of taking hard shots from them. Hopkins would not care. He would get in there and fight them. He may not win, but it would be a challenge for all of them.

    Jack
     
  5. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    So when you're 2-1 against someone you're their 'father' now are you?

    Seriously, what Matos said was right, Tarver wasn't all that, he caught Jones at the right time, had Jones had the sense to just retire after the Ruiz fight this wouldn't even be an argument. Hopkins has aged amazingly well there's no disputing that but to hear some of you go on he's been beating legends every time out since he turned 40 and that ain't the case....going 1-1 with Pascal at his age is a fine achievement yeah, but it's still Pascal, who basically sucks.
     
  6. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    He was also fighter of the decade in the 90's. He's a sad sight now, easy to bash on him but for a long time he was a great fighter to watch and was extremely dominant.
     
  7. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Ruiz was about as good a HW as Pascal was a LHW. In fact scrub that, Ruiz was probably better. Total bum? Absolutely not, total bum is someone like Arreola who can't even be bothered to get into shape for fights, Ruiz was always at fighting weight and always ready to go 12 rounds. Limited of course, but hardly a total bum.
     
  8. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    I like how you point out it was Hopkins 5th year as a pro, how long had Jones been a pro?

    As for comparing their accomplishments/longevity, it actually is close. Jones accomplishments beat Hopkins, Hopkins longevity beats Jones. Dead even on my count and the killer is that Jones beat Hopkins easily in their only meaningful fight.

    I fully expect you to now respond with your usual list of 'bums' that Jones fought when he was LHW champ, and be warned I'll come back with a list of Hopkins victims at MW if you do that, and it really isn't pretty :haha:
     
  9. Valdosta

    Valdosta Boxing Fanatics Moderator

    Balls or smarts? They all fought where they would make the most money.
     
  10. Valdosta

    Valdosta Boxing Fanatics Moderator

    Pascal never beat Hopkins.
     
  11. Ruiz would never have gotten the belt if he'd had to fight the Klitchkos or Lennox Lewis or any halfway decent champion. Granted, he wasn't literally some tomato can they picked up off the street, but as any reasonable measure of a heavyweight champ, Ruiz sucked, stop making excuses.

    Did you forget that James Toney also beat Ruiz at heavyweight? Only because of Toneys drug use was it declared a No Contest. But if a roided up, fat, unmotivated, former middleweight can beat you, there's absolutely no way you can call Jones beating Ruiz some kind of amazing achievement. Ruiz sucked. Jones had the opportunity to stay at heavy and actually fight someone worthwhile but tellingly, he stayed the hell out of that. You can't possibly call him heavyweight champ with a straight face. At best he was a belt holder from beating a weak champ.
     
  12. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    By the same token, Hopkins and Slappy Joe both had the opportunity to move up to LHW years before they actually did yet chose to stay where they were, making meaningless defences. The reason they did that is Roy Jones Jr.
     
  13. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Woulda, shoulda, coulda, the story of the Roy Jones fan's life.

    Tarver destroyed RJJ when he was supposedly invincible and considered the #1 p4p boxer in the world by most. That's huge.

    How many 40+ fighters can defeat decent fighters regularly, much less the top fighters in a division? Enlighten me.

    Pascal has never defeated Hopkins. Come back to reality witton! :thumby:
     
  14. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    He was a very good fighter but he never proved to be great. You don't accomplish that by facing C fighters for the bulk of that run.

    And no, defeating a green Hopkins doesn't prove anything. Honeyghan's victory over Curry was more impressive, but no one is calling Honeyghan an all-time great. That's just one example out of hundreds.
     
  15. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    BS. Ruiz was never anything special. He just happened to be in a division that has been complete crap for awhile now. He was a master grappler, that I will give him.
     
  16. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Nevermind that Hopkins had served some time in prison? Did you conveniently forget about that also?

    They are very easy to rate historically.

    Roy Jones Jr. is barely even top 5 all-time at light heavyweight. Bernard Hopkins is arguably the #2-#3 middleweight of all-time.

    Hopkins holds victories over several fighters that knocked out Jones (Tarver, Johnson).

    Hopkins wins in the longevity department. This is the area that ends the discussion. While past prime, Hopkins has defeated Antonio Tarver, Winky Wright, Kelly Pavlik, Roy Jones Jr., and Jean Pascal. Keep in mind, Hopkins was an underdog for many of these bouts.

    While past prime, Roy Jones Jr. has been knocked out multiple times and has not scored even ONE significant "world class" victory.

    Simply put, a past prime Hopkins has remained "world class" while Roy Jones Jr. has been a total shell of himself since he was destroyed by Tarver. Roy Jones Jr. has also lost to the best light heavyweights he ever faced.
     
  17. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Toney schooled him just as easily as Jones, if not easier. Toney was clowning around the ring while Jones Jr. was dominant but appeared very nervous throughout.
     
  18. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Ruiz was never anything special yet Pascal, Pavlik and Tarver were? :haha:

    Ruiz got the belt by beating the ghost of Holyfield, Tarver got the belt by beating the ghost of Jones....you give Hopkins credit for beating Tarver yet no credit to Jones for moving up 2 weights to beat Ruiz, it's just pure hatred and bias.
     
  19. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    The Tarver win was a huge win yes, I've never denied that. Subsequent events have taken the shine off it somewhat when you see how quick Jones declined, it's obvious that going up to HW and coming down again hurt him badly but Merkerson was pointing out his decline before he even fought Clinton Woods. Guys that fight like Jones don't age well, Leonard was the same as I've pointed out many times on here.

    As I said before it's only once Jones was out of the way that the likes of Hopkins and Slappy moved up to feed off the scraps, and that is extremely significant :wink7:
     
  20. witton_lane

    witton_lane Boxing Fanatics All-Time Great

    Hopkins was green at 28, I always love that excuse :lol:

    Honeyghans win over Curry was impressive at the time but Curry didn't go on to have the career that Hopkins had after that defeat did he, and I guess that's what burns you as a Jones hater - every time old Hopkins wins it makes that Jones win over him look that bit better - and he did it with one hand too :thumby: So obviously as a hater you have to resort to the "green" bullshit.
     

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