Have previous day weigh in's made it easier for modern fighters to achieve, P4P wise?

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Tam-Tam, Jan 10, 2004.

  1. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    This question hit me yesterday, while I was discussing Manny Pacquaio's loss to Medgoen.

    The thought behind it is this:- With fighters weighing in a day prior to their fights, they then have 24+ hours to rehydrate and add weight for which to be more comfortable to fight under. This means that a fighter can effectively squeeze down to weights, lower then what they would usually if weighing in on the same day. How? They simply cannot add back as much weight and don't have that near 36 hour window of recovery.

    What does this mean for fighter's who've had success in the modern game though? Has their P4P success not been enhanced by previous day weigh in's? I for one don't see fighters like Arturo Gatti, Kostya Tszyu, Manny Pacquaio, Shane Mosely, Felix Trinidad and even Roy Jones having the same sort of success in the times of same day weigh in's.

    Personally, I don't believe Pacquaio would have even been able to be successful as a flyweight (let alone win a championship) under the older circumstances, and the Tszyu's, Gatti's and Jones' of the world would have had to have vacated their division long before finally being forced from it.

    If its not explained well, I have sun stroke, so nah.

    [ January 10, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Tam-Tam ]
     
  2. Lefthooker

    Lefthooker Member

    It is one of the main reasons 'old timer' fight fans tend to 'pooh-pooh' the multi-divisional achievments of the modern fighter.
    OF COURSE it's easier to artificially 'make' weight under today's rules. Therefore it is much easier to; a) fight in weight classes that you don't really belong in - hence you beat smaller men ( ODLH is the most obvious example to spring to mind)and pick up 'championships' along the way.
    b)With the most minor of dietary tinkering, todays fighter can move from one division to another with extreme ease.The difference between fighting for a WW title or a JMW title comes down to what time you eat your last meal before weigh-in!
    Not so in the so-called 'old days'.
    Same day weigh-ins ensure that when you move up, you're definitely fighting a bigger man.
    As it should be.
     
  3. Xplosive

    Xplosive Member

    In some cases it makes a differance, but overall, I still think quality more times than not can overcome weight.
     
  4. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Of course, this is an age old argument and "modern" guys just don't seem to get it though.

    I just thought I'd bring it up here, because I haven't gotten the thoughts of this forum yet.

    One name I left off was Oscar De La Hoya. he slots in with all of the previous guys.
     
  5. Lefthooker

    Lefthooker Member

    X, while I would agree that quality always wins out, so too does the old adage ' a good big man always beats a good small man'.
    A lax weigh-in policy results in fighters 'making weight' when, in actuality, they are fighting in a division that - in previous years - they could not have competed in.
    Couple that with the proliferation of 'titles' floating around and you end up with a highly diluted merit system.
    I don't doubt that the true greats of today could have held their own against any bygone era...but, I also don't doubt that Oscar, Roy, and so many others would IN NO WAY be able to lay claim to so many 'titles'.
    If weight were not the single most significant factor in boxing, then why are the deliniation of divisions based SOLELY on that factor?
    It's not just the 'making' of weight, it is the performance AT THE WEIGHT.A guy who starves to make an unnatural weight will be unable to fight at the proper level.Nowe give that same guy 30+ hours to reinvigorate his body....whole different story.
    Day before weigh-ins are having the effect of rendering 'multi-divisional' accomplishments virtually meaningless.
    todays fighters are playing under a totally different set of rules than the old timers.
     
  6. KoCav

    KoCav Guest

    Even so, Trinidad was struggling to make 147 near the end of his campaign in that division. I think everything is relative, and without day-before weigh-ins, champions would still, for the most part, defend their titles as often and as successfully as they do now. They would just be doing it at a higher weight class.

    The day-before advantages go to young guys (quicker recovery) and guys whose bodies are built to pack on weight. Hearns, with his long frame, would be a monstrous, unbeatable welterweight with the advantage of 36 hours recovery time.
     
  7. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    This is exactly my point. Modern fighters who sweep through the divisions have that big advantage of fighting at weights they never would have been able to compete at before.

    Seeing a guy like Mosely melt down to 135 and then use an IV to rehydrate and restore his strength for 36 hours - then go out and dominate a comparitively much smaller man, isn't right IMO. And when that same fighter all of a sudden jumps to 147 and wins the welterweight crown, people mention his name in the same sentence as say, a Henry Amrstrong or Roberto Duran.

    It's the sort of thing that really irks me about ranking modern fighters under all-time P4P criteria, when quite honestly, the conditions have now changed, and I place a great deal LESS on a fighter who is able to climb through divisions and still win, as I would for a fighter who fought under the old conditions of same day weigh in's.

    Like you just said, if Tommy Hearns was given the same liberties as todays fighters, to melt down, then add back the weight AND have the time to recover and rest up - what sort of career would he have had @ 147? Arguello as a featherweight for say 7-8 years as champion? You could make strong cases for a number of guys..

    Right now, I think the game has changed too much, and comparing todays best, to the best of even 20 years ago, has become too difficult and largely, guess work.
     
  8. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    About a year ago I quess I coined the phrase as it pertains to Boxing "Easier Does It". there is no doubt that the sport has become easier and previous day weigh-ins are ony one example. The shortening of title fights, somewheere close to 70 belts available. As a matter of fact it is the 70 or so belts that allows the modern fighter to achieve P4P wise. Lets be frank it is a lot easier to define who is the best fighter in the division when there is only one champion. I'll take the most recent example, one Acelino Freitas who "won" a second world championship a week ago. A man who was never a one time champion is now a two time champion? So now it can be argued that Acelino Freitas along with Micky Walker are two division champions? Micky Walker was, Acelino Freitas wasn't or isn't, but yet he will be recognised a two division champion in this the generation of easier does it. I've described moving up in weight to pick off indvidual belts as a choreographed waltz through a minefield and as recently as a week ago Acelino was the Fred Astaire of Boxing. Fret not Freitas fans he won't be Astaire forever sometime in the very near future another fighter will twostep his way to a belt. Truth be told like all minefield victims it's the ones you don't see that kill you and thats invariably what happens to Freitas types they avoid the obvious mines (better fighters) but end up getting blown up by a borderline nothingnarian. You would think that would be the end of it, and all nations rejoiced, but no, now the borderline nothingnarian is hailed as something special bnecause the defeated ex-champion was held in such falsely elevated esteem. Next thing you know the first fighter who comes along that is marginally better than the borderline nothingnarians is hailed as the next Sugar Ray Robinson. Givng credit to fighters for doing something that they really haven't done is the first step in making a fighter out to be abetter than he really is.
     
  9. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Matos, thats an entire other thread, which I believe I could sit down and discuss with you for well over a thousand posts.

    This is my one part bitch with the modern game, aimed at those who view today's champions and P4P greats in the same esteem as someone who acheived the same thing, in a day where it actually meant something.

    We could actually dedicate an entire board to: "Things wrong with boxing". A simple thread can never do it justice.

    By the way, are you trying to say Frietas ISN'T in the class of Mickey Walker?? :eek:
     
  10. Michael Matos

    Michael Matos Member

    Whatever gave you that idea?
     
  11. KoCav

    KoCav Guest

    I disagree with the severity of your view on the Past versus the Modern.

    Henry Armstrong, for example, competed for the middleweight title (so people say) against a champion who weighed 153-154 pounds. Armstrong only weighed 142 pounds. That couldn't happen today, and it's not because of day before weigh-ins.

    So how much easier is it now as compared to then? Not as easy as I think you're suggesting.

    And while I agree that it's much easier to snake a title today (no surprise), it's due largely in part to the dilution of belts. To a much lesser extent, it can be attributed to previous day weigh-ins.
     
  12. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Hence my saying of "one part bitch". The proliferation of titles is well documented and far more obvious. I believe this problem is less publicised and more often then not, disregarded by a number of boxing fans.
     
  13. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    the only fight i know of where gatti's extra weight helped him was against Joey Gamache and reyes munoz in 2 fights he would have won anyhow

    and it hurt him in fights with ivan robinson where he played that game and got burnt for it..looking very slow and weak in the legs

    but gatti never used the scales to his advantage in any of his jr. lightweight opponents
     
  14. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    You miss the entire point of my thread - Gatti would not have been a 130 pounder if there were same day weigh in's. He ALWAYS blew up to come into the ring as a welterweight after a 130 pound weigh in. Its part of the reason he used to cut, bleed and swell up all the time - his body was too dehydrated.

    he sacrificed his skin, for the ability to use his size and strength at the weight. He was like a bleeding sledge hammer @ 130.
     
  15. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    not so sure about that...i would be curios to know Gatti's weight in the ring against guys like patterson, rodriguez, and ruelas...he didnt seem overblown to me
     
  16. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    He looked physically bigger then each of those men. Over blown? I don't understand what you're expecting him too look like. I believe he added at least 12-15 pounds between weigh in and fight time in each of those fights. That much of a weight increase does not indicate it was a natural weight for him to fight at, especially if he had to dry out so much.
     
  17. dmille

    dmille Guest

    IF same day weigh-ins were still held, we would have

    1) Fighters fighting at weights much closer to natural and many would have to train harder to maintain their weight

    2) Struggling fighters moving up in weight much sooner rather than face a Honeyghan-Curry style defeat
     
  18. KoCav

    KoCav Guest

    That's the flipside to the argument, Dmille. And it's probably what contributed to Manny Pacquiao being KO'd by a flyweight.

    But it's still hard to deny that some fighters (even Pacquiao) unduly benefit from weighing in the day before their fight.
     

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