"Green" fighters doing well v. legends

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Joonie73, Dec 11, 2003.

  1. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Well, you and I disagree on a fundemental point - I dont think Nelson was green at all. He fought the only kind of fight that he would have had a chance to win in. Not a chance Nelson wins with teh style that he made famous later on.

    I never once tried to argue that Fenech was on the level with Sanchez. But perhaps you and I disagree there as well.
     
  2. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    The point was that some fighters are boxing prodigies at such a young age. Fenech and Nelson both proved it later beyond a reasonable doubt. Double standard wanker. [​IMG]
     
  3. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Like I said, watch the fight. Nelson didn't fight him like a green fighter. He gave Sal many problems. Some people had Nelson up by a point going into the final round. Oh yeah, a real green fighter. [​IMG]
     
  4. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Exactly. He fucking attacked him like madman for 15 rounds. Nelson later become a boxer-puncher and wasn't as aggressive. He wouldn't have been as competitive had he fought him the way he fought others later.

    Tam, don't listen to Remus. He's never even seen the damn fight!! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [ December 11, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  5. Remus

    Remus Member

    i'm not going to get into this again. i'm shocked that you believe that nelson at 13/0 with NO big fight experience is a legit contender to a guy with a wealth of experience at an ELITE level on top of the fact that he was prob one of the most talented fighters ever.

    i herbey dubb this type of stupidity as a "rebel-ism". :D [​IMG]
     
  6. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    You misunderstood me in several respects, Tam.

    First, I said "green" in professional terms.

    Second, part of my intent here was to show that some fighters with long amateur experience (Kim, Park, Chitalada) can adopt to the professional game almost immediately.

    I also don't understand what you mean by this: "Never did he perform so well against a highly regarded fighter, before or after." He never performed so well as a professional, yes, but that's because he was ancient when he turned professional. He had better performances as an amateur, including winning just about every thing out there, including Olympic gold, World Cup, Asian Games, et al. (But he wasn't the best Korean amateur flyweight of the time; Young-Mo Huh was much better but he didn't turn pro because of a severe hand injury.)

     
  7. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I guess you think Joonie and Tam are idiots also? We've all seen the fight. You haven't.

    He gave Sal hell and that was the only style that Nelson would've ever had a chance to defeat him with. Stupidity is your refusal to accept that which is truth. [​IMG]
     
  8. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Like I said before, Nelson wasn't green at all. Nelson is never going to do as well against Sanchez as he did in that fight, his unknown nature HELPED him.

    He'd have been taken apart in much easier fashion 2 or 3 years later.
     
  9. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    There is a big difference between amateur and pro experience. Amateurs are 3 round fights with head gear. Now if Chitalda would've gone on to become an Azumah Nelson type great, that's different. In that example, it's also hard to gauge anything seeing that it was a 6 rounder.

    Now in Sal's case. He didn't even have an amateur career! That's pure genius IMO.

    [ December 11, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  10. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Ok, the professional terms then, I can agree with. But I don't believe that's a fair look on it. Even with only those few pro fights, I think Kim was every bit (if not more) experienced in the ring then was Gonzalez. I see Kim as having the advantage there.

    The onnly problem, was that Kim wasn't trained for 12 rounds.

    My other point about Kim never been better then he was in that fight, is used to highlight that this wasn't a one off bad night for Kim. He was at his professional best and while he boxed well, he was fading badly and this wasn't some freak, one punch KO. He was getting damaged badly for a couple of rounds leading up to the stoppage IMO.

    [ December 11, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Tam-Tam ]
     
  11. Remus

    Remus Member

    i never argued that he didn't give sal hell, i never argued that he didn't perform well. i'm not arguing about the fight at all...which is why i don't need to see it.

    what i'm arguing is the fact that nelson at 13/0 simply was not ready for sal. the fact that he put up such a great fight is more a case for azumah's greatness than it is for sal's.

    you're trying to tell me that this green version of azumah wouldn't have performed better against sanchez had they fought after nelson had another 15-20 fighs and had a shitload more experience at an elite, championship level ?

    do you not agree that fighters with experience at an elite level have a distinct advantage over guys that have never competed at that level when they are BOTH super talented ?

    come on...this is a rebelism in the extreme. and if the other two whackers agree with you then i'll add joonie-ism and tam-ism to the list. :D

    [ December 11, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Remus ]
     
  12. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    1. Chitalada wasn't obviously as great as Nelson but he was a respectable champion & some consider him a borderline flyweight great (though I am not one of them).

    2. Chang didn't have an amateur career either. He learned his craft streetfighting as the leader of a notorious Pusan youth gang (sort of Korean version of Crips).

     
  13. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Chang was in a gang? Eh, that rhymes. LOL
    He didn't look like a gangster to me in the second Zapata fight. He looked more like a grocery store owner. :D
     
  14. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Remus, thats EXACTLY what Im saying. I don't believe Nelson would have EVER done as well against Sal as he did. Nelson's style evolved and became a far worse matchup with Sanchez because of it. Like I said, Sanchez beats Nelson MUCH easier at any later stage in his career.
     
  15. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Why is it so difficult for you to get this?

    Watch the fight, watch Nelson fights from 4 years later, and tell me what you see in Nelson's "matured" style that would've lead him to more success against Sal.

    Nelson wasn't ready for Sal? Dude, he almost beat him! Were you ever a boxer bro? Me thinks you've been hit in the head too many times. [​IMG]
     
  16. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    As I said, I wasn't trying to make the case that Kim was raw! My point is exactly opposite; that in some cases, a fighter with a few professional bouts can be very experienced fighter.

    But I am still not understanding your point at the bottom. Are you trying to say that the Kim of Gonzalez fight was the best Kim, period? If yes, then I am completely befuddled, as Kim was 28 years old & had seriously diminished hand speed & stamina. The Kim of say, 1987 (the one that beat the crap out of Myung-Woo Yuh in 12-15 round sparring sessions) would take Gonzalez without question.

     
  17. Remus

    Remus Member

    i disagree with both of you. i think y'all have rocks in yer heads. [​IMG]
     
  18. Remus

    Remus Member

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  19. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    Chang was a scary fellow when he was young. As he confessed in a recent interview, "I committed every crime imaginable except murder." He was able to not do serious jail-time because he was the boss & passed on the blame to the lower guys. We were speculating the other day that he fouled so much because of his streetfighting background.

    [ December 11, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Joonie73 ]
     
  20. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    Joonie, I said (I thought clearly) that the version of Kim that fought Gonzalez was the best PRO version of him.

    What I was also eluding too, is that I actually think Kim was the more experienced fighter here and that HE had the advantages, not Gonzalez.
     

Share This Page