"Green" fighters doing well v. legends

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Joonie73, Dec 11, 2003.

  1. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    People often mention how remarkable it was for the "green" Azumah Nelson to have done so well v. an established legend like Salvador Sanchez. But I can mention several fighters who were "greener" in professional terms & did better as well or better than Nelson. Now, Nelson had 13 fights & was almost 3 years into his professional career when he met Sanchez. Here are some other fighters worth discussing that I thought up:

    Chan-Hee Park (now perhaps the most overlooked Asian borderline great & the greatest Korean amateur ever) had 10 fights & was less than 2 years into his professional career when he comprehensively out-classed Miguel Canto.

    Kwang-Sun Kim had 5 fights & was less than 2 years into his professional career when he was soundly beating Chiquita Gonzalez (the fight was not as close as the scorecards indicate) when he got caught in the final round.

    Fighting Harada did have a lot of fights but was still less than 3 years into his professional career when he gave one of the most one-sided beatings ever in a great v. great type of match-up v. Pone Kingpetch.

    Jung-Koo Chang (who was recovering from a broken foot & shouldn't have been in the ring to begin with) was less than 2 years into his professional career when he lost a controversial decision to Hilario Zapata.

    I am sure there are more but I don't want to think too hard & these are just the starters. But the point is, Nelson's achievement in retrospect may not be so out of the norm if we look at the issue from a more global perspective.

    [ December 11, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Joonie73 ]
  2. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Jeff Fenech is another name that comes to mind.
  3. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    Are you thinking of the Zaragoza fight or Zarate fight for Fenech? I never thought much of Daniel, as you know & you've made the argument that he peaked later anyways. As for Zarate, he was already far gone.
  4. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    My bad. I misread the topic. I just named off a fighter with a handful of fights who won a title and took it from there. LOL
  5. El Gavilan

    El Gavilan Guest

    Maybe the best example is Jim Jeffries, who was probably green his entire career.
  6. BedtimeBear

    BedtimeBear Guest

    Nelson - Sanchez is my favorite example.

    I think Chavez-Taylor is a good one. Of course in this example, it was his inexperience that made him go all out, going all out gave him big success early, but ultimately led to his downfall. So thats a nice one too.

    Was that the way Gonzalez-Kim was, or did Gonzalez just get lucky?
  7. Joonie73

    Joonie73 Guest

    Gonzalez was being badly outboxed in my opinion & down on all 3 scorecards heading into the final round (I had it a lot wider than the judges had it). Gonzalez was lucky in 2 ways. Obviously, he was lucky in that he caught Kim late. Second, he was also lucky in that he didn't face the younger version of Kim, who would never have tired the way he did in that fight. Kim spent his best years as an amateur (where he won Olympic gold & World Cup) & didn't turn pro until around 26-27, which is ancient as far as the lower weights go. If he turned pro after the 84 Olympics, as he should have, he would have been in the Yuh-Gonzalez-Carbajal mix. I think he had better talent than all 3.

  8. Remus

    Remus Member

    this topic brings back memories dont it now rebz ? :D [​IMG]
  9. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    We've already discussed Nelson-Sanchez. I don't believe he was green like everyone claims he was. The proof is in the fight my friend. It's not like he had 5 fights under his belt. LOL

    Nelson went on to make his mark.
  10. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Yes it does. You never did address my comparison to Fenech. :D
  11. BedtimeBear

    BedtimeBear Guest

    I got to see these Asian fighters, I havent had much exposure to them.

    I agree with you Rebel, that Nelson was very formidable when he fought Sanchez.

    He was also very raw, and clearly he became more polished as his career progressed.

    Still, raw or not, I think that factors far less than some believe, Nelson couldnt have fought a much better fight than he did that night. He was strong, unintimidated, and relentless.

    I dont think he ever became crafty enough to outfox Sanchez, and if his youthful strength couldnt turn the trick, thats good enough for me.

    It still fits the topic, so dont be so defensive.
  12. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    The argument could be made that Fenech was "green" his entire career.

    Especially if you call the Kim that GOnzalez knocked out that same thing.

    Fenech fits in with the others Joonie. You shouldn't have an argument here.
  13. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I personally feel that there are few exceptions to the rule. Fenech and Nelson were obviously boxing prodigies.
  14. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    But what is the rule?

    To me, no way was Kim green. He had a HUGE amatuer career and he was at his professioanl best against Gonzalez. Never did he perform so well against a highly regarded fighter, before or after. Thats HARDLY green.

    Fenech on the other hand, was raw as you could imagine early in his career. He started boxing at 115 and he took the 118 crown with only 24 rounds of experience behind him. He was consistently getting better and better with each fight as well.

    So what does green actually mean? I think its when a fighter is still learning his craft and hasn't hit their prime. Fenech was getting better right up until he retired after defending the 126 pound title. Kim? He was only getting worse and coming DOWN from his prime. HUge difference.
  15. TIP

    TIP Member

    Nelson may have had only 13 pro fights but did have a respectable amateur background 50-1 winning the gold as a featherweight in the Edmonton games. TIP
  16. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I didn't know all of that TIP. Where did you get that info?
  17. Remus

    Remus Member

    the argument nelson thread, (i couldn;t find it), had brother rebel claiming a huge victory for sanchrez over azumah when azumah was as green as they come.

    i still don't know how the fenech example is relevant at all. fenech is not judged by the same standards as sal.
  18. TIP

    TIP Member

  19. Tam-Tam

    Tam-Tam Member

    I dont get it.
  20. Remus

    Remus Member

    fenech is not anywhere NEAR the fighter sal was. so i tend to be less generous when handing sal's assessment becasue i believe the greater you are, the higher up the list you are, the more scrutiny you will receive becasue the standards are higher.

    if you're going to use the nelson fight to say sal was an excellent fighter by defeating nelson then i would agree that it can be used. but to use the nelson fight against OBVIOUSLY a talented but GREEN nelson to prove sal's LEGEND and GREATNESS is a flawed argument.

    beating nelson at 13/0 and beating nelson 4 years later is like night and day.

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