Discussion on Willie Pep

Discussion in 'Boxing News and Discussion' started by Rebel, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Chalky Wright was defeated by Baby Arizmendi twice. It doesn't impress me that Pep defeated him.

    Manuel Ortiz was a natural bantamweight. That's not very impressive either.

    The others were world-class fighters but nothing special.

    After 140 fights, Ray Robinson had defeated the likes of Sammy Angott, Kid Gavilan, Fritzie Zivic, Jake Lamotta, Henry Armstrong, Bobo Olson, and many others. As a matter of fact, he beat many of these guys more than once during this stretch.

    Ray Robinson's record up to that point was a Who's Who of the HOF. He also later proved that he could move up in weight and take care of business unlike Pep who faltered when he tried it against Angott. The two resumes are not comparable up to that point nor are they comparable at any point in their careers.

    Willie Pep was a great fighter but Sandy Saddler was an even greater fighter and he proved it by beating him 3 out of 4 times. But I will concede that a case could be made for Pep based on what you've said. As you know, many individuals rank those two differently. I'm not alone in my perspective.

    [ October 20, 2003, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  2. The Hitman

    The Hitman Hitman

    did someone mention that pep was stopped on a cut in the first saddler fight? i have always wondered b/c if saddler ever cleanly KO'd Pep it would have to rank as one of the more impressive KOs in boxing history. did Saddler ever cleanly KO pep?

    Hitman
     
  3. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    Rebs...why are you bringin up Ray Robinson in to measure pep's greatness at featherweight? thats not very objective..i find it silly..no offense
     
  4. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Someone else used him as an example to compare both fighter's at the 140 fight mark. I didn't do it. I thought the comparison was way off.
     
  5. BJ*

    BJ* Member

    Hmmm...I don't know rebel - you trivialze ALL of Pep's name opponents due to other losses, but use Kid Gavilan, Fritzie Zivic, Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olson, etc to prop up Ray in response...I have neither the time nor the inclination (what movie is that from) to get their records out, but someone could EASILY tear them apart as well if that was their desire. I won't tear them down because I don't think they should be torn down...but you see the point.

    Hey croc, did you notice the timing of this whole thread? There was a post in the regular forum and peps name came up, I told diesel that Pep was Italian (he thought he was Mexican)...Then BOOM!...rebel has the "discredit willie pep" thread started [​IMG]
     
  6. BJ*

    BJ* Member

    You're arguing with yourself now. Your point should actually boost your opinion of Pep. Where do you rank JC all-time? Figure that out, and then you can go ahead and put Pep a few notches higher [​IMG]
     
  7. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I know Ray Robinson's opponents were not undefeated greats when he fought them but many of them did do well enough for themselves that they later became future HOFers. My point is that Pep's resume up to that point was not comparable to Robinson's, whose resume boasts a bunch of HOFers. The one guy he owned the most during that time period was Chalky Wright, a fighter that Baby Arizmendi, a Mexican journeyman contender defeated a few times also. I think it's clear as day that the Robinson comparison was way off.

    I'm not trying to discredit Pep. I feel he truly was a great fighter but not the best featherweight of all-time. That honor belongs to Mr. Saddler.

    [ October 20, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  8. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I do rank Pep highly. I have him at #2 all-time at featherweight.
     
  9. Crocodillo

    Crocodillo Guest

    im just gonna let it go dude...rebs doesnt like "east coast italians"

    he he :D [​IMG]
     
  10. BJ*

    BJ* Member

    I know. The funniest thing about that though is that Rebel thinks Pittsburgh is on the East coast [​IMG] ;)
     
  11. BJ*

    BJ* Member

    Rebel also fails to mention that Sandy Saddler HIMSELF has a loss to a nobody in EVERY single year that he was active Except for '51 when his 2 losses that year were to Paddy DeMarco who is not really a nobody, but not an all-timer either...and '49 when he only lost to Pep.
    But somehow Pep BEATING Chalky Wright who in turn lost to Baby Arizmendi is counted AGAINST Pep :eek: [​IMG] This argument also from a guy (rebel, i'm talking about you :D )who in another topic states that he can forgive some periodic losses for the old-timers because of their activity level back then... [​IMG]
     
  12. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I do forgive many of the old-timers for losing to nobodies here and there. Saddler dropped several decisions to those types of guys as you mentioned. That happens when you fight that often. I give Pep a lot of credit for maintaining such a great record for a long time. That's why I rate him highly. That's the backbone for his greatness. But I just can't bring myself to rank him above a guy he lost to 3 out of 4 times. Saddler's record wasn't as pretty but he clearly proved he was superior to Pep, one of the greatest fighters of all-time. That my friend is why I rate him higher.

    [ October 20, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  13. BJ*

    BJ* Member

    So is Ken Norton a greater heavyweight than Ali?
    Ali never (in real life) beat Norton...Norton would be what you call Ali's daddy. Norton 3 outta 3. Obviously that isn't the case. Having one boogieman isn't a sin. Norton is not the better heavy over Ali. And it can be argued that Pep is ahead of Saddler.
     
  14. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Norton was a joke. Take away his fights with Ali, and you have nothing but an average contender.

    Unlike Norton, Saddler proved to be consistent. He didn't just beat Pep 3 out of 4 times. He won the title at 130 also. Look at his record and you'll see that there was more to Saddler than just beating the great Willie Pep. However, I do agree that a case could be made for rating Pep as the #1 FW of all-time.

    [ October 20, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  15. Rabid Kimba

    Rabid Kimba Member

    Unlike Rebel, who's trying to be diplomatic with all of yous...da Kimbster pulls NO punches.

    Regardless of records or what not, on head-to-head competition, Pep would've gotten his ass ROYALLY kicked by Sanchez, Morales, and Barrera.

    Of da featherweight old-timers, only Saddler could've been a GREAT modern fighter today.

    So you can take that to da bank, and kiss my... [​IMG]

    Thank you, and have a nice day. [​IMG]
     
  16. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Old timers are any fighter that fought PRIOR to the 1930s. A fighter that fought in the 1940s or 1950s looks practically like somebody today. That?s why they ALL are considered MODERN fighters.

    Robinson and Pep are contemporaries. I pick Robinson over practically EVERYBODY at 147 lbs. And I do the same with Pep.
     
  17. Valentino

    Valentino Member

    Ali beat Norton twice.

    Saddler gave Pep BEATINGs. Not even close.
     
  18. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    I think Napoles and Sugar Ray Leonard would've given Ray Robinson tough fights at 147.

    I also feel that Sanchez, Morales, and Barrera could've defeated Pep at 126.

    [ October 20, 2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Rebel ]
     
  19. Rebel

    Rebel Admin

    Many people feel Ali should've lost all 3.
     
  20. Rabid Kimba

    Rabid Kimba Member

    ...as well as Hearns.

    Fuck Pep. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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